For some reason when I change to 2nd gear I sometimes get a 'crunchy'
kinda noise.

It sounds like when you push the clutch down, and instantly shove the
stick into reverse, ie. without waiting a couple of seconds.  I hope
you know what I mean.  It usually happens when I down changed at about
30mph, and is sometimes quite bad.  I've matched revs perfectly, and
I've also tried double declutching, but I still get the noise.

What do you think it is?  At the weekend I will probably check the
gearbox oil level.  I've already checked the clutch pedal position, and
that's correct.

wrote in message
news:1122399541.357453.92000@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> For some reason when I change to 2nd gear I sometimes get a 'crunchy'
> kinda noise.
>
> It sounds like when you push the clutch down, and instantly shove the
> stick into reverse, ie. without waiting a couple of seconds.  I hope
> you know what I mean.  It usually happens when I down changed at about
> 30mph, and is sometimes quite bad.  I've matched revs perfectly, and
> I've also tried double declutching, but I still get the noise.
>
> What do you think it is?  At the weekend I will probably check the
> gearbox oil level.  I've already checked the clutch pedal position, and
> that's correct.


Sounds like the 2nd gear synchro could be a bit tired.
If that is the case though, it shouldn't crunch if you double declutch
properly.
You sure you're doing it right. Revving in neutral with the clutch released,
before pressing the clutch to engage 2nd or a lower gear gear?
Mike.

Mike G wrote:

>  wrote in message
> news:1122399541.357453.92000@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > For some reason when I change to 2nd gear I sometimes get a 'crunchy'
> > kinda noise.
> >
> > It sounds like when you push the clutch down, and instantly shove the
> > stick into reverse, ie. without waiting a couple of seconds.  I hope
> > you know what I mean.  It usually happens when I down changed at about
> > 30mph, and is sometimes quite bad.  I've matched revs perfectly, and
> > I've also tried double declutching, but I still get the noise.
> >
> > What do you think it is?  At the weekend I will probably check the
> > gearbox oil level.  I've already checked the clutch pedal position, and
> > that's correct.
>
> Sounds like the 2nd gear synchro could be a bit tired.
> If that is the case though, it shouldn't crunch if you double declutch
> properly.
> You sure you're doing it right. Revving in neutral with the clutch released,
> before pressing the clutch to engage 2nd or a lower gear gear?


Ah, that's probably the problem, I was pressing the clutch before
setting the revs.  I'll try again, and I think it probably will be the
syncro :-(

You don't say what car you have.
If it's got a cable clutch that you adjust yourself - try adjusting it.

 wrote in message 
news:1122399541.357453.92000@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> For some reason when I change to 2nd gear I sometimes get a 'crunchy'
> kinda noise.
>
> It sounds like when you push the clutch down, and instantly shove the
> stick into reverse, ie. without waiting a couple of seconds.  I hope
> you know what I mean.  It usually happens when I down changed at about
> 30mph, and is sometimes quite bad.  I've matched revs perfectly, and
> I've also tried double declutching, but I still get the noise.
>
> What do you think it is?  At the weekend I will probably check the
> gearbox oil level.  I've already checked the clutch pedal position, and
> that's correct.
> 

"R. Murphy"  wrote in message 
news:dc64qh$nap$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...

> You don't say what car you have.
> If it's got a cable clutch that you adjust yourself - try adjusting it.


It's pinking Peter - he has mentioned it more than a few times :-)

cheers,
clive

R. Murphy wrote:

> You don't say what car you have.
> If it's got a cable clutch that you adjust yourself - try adjusting it.
> 


I think everyone else is well aware of what car it is :)

On 26 Jul 2005 10:39:01 -0700, petermcmillan_uk@yahoo.com wrote:


> For some reason when I change to 2nd gear I sometimes get a 'crunchy'
> kinda noise.
> 
> It sounds like when you push the clutch down, and instantly shove the
> stick into reverse, ie. without waiting a couple of seconds.  I hope
> you know what I mean.  It usually happens when I down changed at about
> 30mph, and is sometimes quite bad.  I've matched revs perfectly, and
> I've also tried double declutching, but I still get the noise.


They you need to practice declutching as it's perfectly possible to drive a
crashbox without crunching it.

> 
> What do you think it is?  At the weekend I will probably check the
> gearbox oil level.


I'd check now incase a seals gone and it's piddled all the oil everywhere.
Suspect that the second gear synchro is on it's way though as they do get
worked the hardest.


>  I've already checked the clutch pedal position, and
> that's correct.

wrote in message
news:1122405752.948487.162670@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

>
> Mike G wrote:
> >  wrote in message
> > news:1122399541.357453.92000@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > For some reason when I change to 2nd gear I sometimes get a 'crunchy'
> > > kinda noise.
> > >
> > > It sounds like when you push the clutch down, and instantly shove the
> > > stick into reverse, ie. without waiting a couple of seconds.  I hope
> > > you know what I mean.  It usually happens when I down changed at about
> > > 30mph, and is sometimes quite bad.  I've matched revs perfectly, and
> > > I've also tried double declutching, but I still get the noise.
> > >
> > > What do you think it is?  At the weekend I will probably check the
> > > gearbox oil level.  I've already checked the clutch pedal position,
and
> > > that's correct.
> >
> > Sounds like the 2nd gear synchro could be a bit tired.
> > If that is the case though, it shouldn't crunch if you double declutch
> > properly.
> > You sure you're doing it right. Revving in neutral with the clutch
released,
> > before pressing the clutch to engage 2nd or a lower gear gear?
>
> Ah, that's probably the problem, I was pressing the clutch before
> setting the revs.  I'll try again, and I think it probably will be the
> syncro :-(


Strangely enough it's called double declutching because you depress and
release the clutch twice.:-)
First time to 'engage' neutral. Then, still in neutral with the clutch still
engaged, rev or allow the engine to slow. When the engine revs match the
revs req'd for the gear you want, depress the clutch, engage the gear and
release the clutch.
With practice it can be done very quickly and smoothly. Useful if you need
to change down going up a hill, especially with a trailer. In a car, you can
just ease the throttle a little, (car engines rev too quickly to keep the
accelerator pedal on the floorboard) and dip the clutch. The engine revs
immediately start rising. Into neutral, release the clutch, then almost
immediately, press the clutch again, snick into the lower gear, release the
clutch and give it full throttle again as the clutch bites.
Mike.

Chris Street wrote:

> On 26 Jul 2005 10:39:01 -0700, petermcmillan_uk@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> For some reason when I change to 2nd gear I sometimes get a 'crunchy'
>> kinda noise.
>>
<snip>
>
> I'd check now incase a seals gone and it's piddled all the oil
> everywhere. Suspect that the second gear synchro is on it's way
> though as they do get worked the hardest.
>


I can vouch for the fact that a *very* harshly driven car will eat the 
second gear synchro in moments.

I took a nearly-scrap car to a run-what-you-brung pseudo stage rally and 
killed the synchro after two laps...

Mike G wrote:

>
> Strangely enough it's called double declutching because you depress and
> release the clutch twice.:-)
> First time to 'engage' neutral. Then, still in neutral with the clutch still
> engaged, rev or allow the engine to slow. When the engine revs match the
> revs req'd for the gear you want, depress the clutch, engage the gear and
> release the clutch.


Yeah, that's what I've been doing today.


> With practice it can be done very quickly and smoothly.


Yes, it works very well, and is very smooth when done correctly.  I can
see myself double declutching for a long time.


> Useful if you need
> to change down going up a hill, especially with a trailer. In a car, you can
> just ease the throttle a little, (car engines rev too quickly to keep the
> accelerator pedal on the floorboard) and dip the clutch. The engine revs
> immediately start rising. Into neutral, release the clutch, then almost
> immediately, press the clutch again, snick into the lower gear, release the
> clutch and give it full throttle again as the clutch bites.

"PC Paul"  wrote in news:uQIFe.39152$Pf3.13543
@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk:


> Chris Street wrote:
>> On 26 Jul 2005 10:39:01 -0700, petermcmillan_uk@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>> For some reason when I change to 2nd gear I sometimes get a 'crunchy'
>>> kinda noise.
>>>
> <snip>
>>
>> I'd check now incase a seals gone and it's piddled all the oil
>> everywhere. Suspect that the second gear synchro is on it's way
>> though as they do get worked the hardest.
>>
> 
> I can vouch for the fact that a *very* harshly driven car will eat the 
> second gear synchro in moments.
> 
> I took a nearly-scrap car to a run-what-you-brung pseudo stage rally 
and 
> killed the synchro after two laps...
> 
> 
> 
> 

Very likely that the synchro on 2nd is knackered and 1st will not be far 
behind. It's a weakness of the Seicento and all small Fiats that use this 
box - SWMBO had new 1st&2nd synchro units on her 99V Seicento about a 
year ago. Work cost about 200.


-- 
Stuart Sharp

wrote in message
news:1122485691.126094.170940@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
>
> Mike G wrote:
> >
> > Strangely enough it's called double declutching because you depress and
> > release the clutch twice.:-)
> > First time to 'engage' neutral. Then, still in neutral with the clutch
still
> > engaged, rev or allow the engine to slow. When the engine revs match the
> > revs req'd for the gear you want, depress the clutch, engage the gear
and
> > release the clutch.
>
> Yeah, that's what I've been doing today.
>
> > With practice it can be done very quickly and smoothly.
>
> Yes, it works very well, and is very smooth when done correctly.  I can
> see myself double declutching for a long time.


Presumably double declutching you no longer get the crunch when changing
down into 2nd.
Get into the habit, and you wont wear your synchros out. :-)
Although it can be used when changing up or down, in a car I mainly only
double declutch when changing down at relatively high speeds. Maybe between
50 and 80mph. At slower speeds I usually let the synchros do the work.
Mike.

Mike G wrote:

>
> Presumably double declutching you no longer get the crunch when changing
> down into 2nd.


Yeah, you're right!


> Get into the habit, and you wont wear your synchros out. :-)


Yeah, I hope to get into the habit.  It's a shame that my syncro is
going :-(


> Although it can be used when changing up or down, in a car I mainly only
> double declutch when changing down at relatively high speeds. Maybe between
> 50 and 80mph. At slower speeds I usually let the synchros do the work.


lol, I wouldn't change down to 2nd at anything faster than 35mph
(usually no more than 30).  The top speed in 2nd is a little over
40mph, and that's right on the limiter.

petermcmillan_uk@yahoo.com wrote in
news:1122489788.098551.46260@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: 


> 
> lol, I wouldn't change down to 2nd at anything faster than 35mph
> (usually no more than 30).  The top speed in 2nd is a little over
> 40mph, and that's right on the limiter.
> 
> 

Seicentos are quite low geared, aren't they? My car will hit 60 in 2nd; I 
use it for overtaking anything doing less than 45 (with a double declutch, 
of course :-). When I did advanced driving, they forbid gear changes while 
overtaking. A silly rule, IMHO. It prevents you from changing down for 
better acceleration, meaning that safe overtaking requires one to have a 
very long stretch of clear road (quite a rarity) or a supercar with 
enormous torque! Another silly one: you're not allowed to change down while 
braking. Just try braking to turn down a side road, leaving yourself enough 
time to release the brake and change down before staring to turn, and 
you'll understand where I'm coming from :-)


-- 
Stuart Sharp

Stu wrote:

> petermcmillan_uk@yahoo.com wrote in
> news:1122489788.098551.46260@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> >
> > lol, I wouldn't change down to 2nd at anything faster than 35mph
> > (usually no more than 30).  The top speed in 2nd is a little over
> > 40mph, and that's right on the limiter.
> >
> >
> Seicentos are quite low geared, aren't they? My car will hit 60 in 2nd; I
> use it for overtaking anything doing less than 45 (with a double declutch,
> of course :-).


I wish my car was like that.  The limiter is around 6000rpm, so it is
pretty low geared.  The new Aygo is aparently 'good for more than 50mph
in 2nd', it may not sound good to you guys, but I'd love that.


> When I did advanced driving, they forbid gear changes while
> overtaking. A silly rule, IMHO. It prevents you from changing down for
> better acceleration, meaning that safe overtaking requires one to have a
> very long stretch of clear road (quite a rarity) or a supercar with
> enormous torque! Another silly one: you're not allowed to change down while
> braking. Just try braking to turn down a side road, leaving yourself enough
> time to release the brake and change down before staring to turn, and
> you'll understand where I'm coming from :-)

petermcmillan_uk@yahoo.com wrote:

> Stu wrote:
>> petermcmillan_uk@yahoo.com wrote in
>> news:1122489788.098551.46260@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>>
>>> lol, I wouldn't change down to 2nd at anything faster than 35mph
>>> (usually no more than 30).  The top speed in 2nd is a little over
>>> 40mph, and that's right on the limiter.
>>>
>>>
>> Seicentos are quite low geared, aren't they? My car will hit 60 in
>> 2nd; I use it for overtaking anything doing less than 45 (with a
>> double declutch, of course :-).
>
> I wish my car was like that.  The limiter is around 6000rpm, so it is
> pretty low geared.  The new Aygo is aparently 'good for more than
> 50mph in 2nd', it may not sound good to you guys, but I'd love that.
>


The limiter setting and low geared are not the same at all. Many bigger cars 
redline at or below 6000rpm too. Except the VVTi/VTeC crowd.

I find I always want cars with higher gearing too, though. I would have 
loved to cruise at 1500rpm at 85 in my Carlton but instead it was doing just 
short of 3000rpm :-(

There's plenty of room for longer ratios when 5th can happily cover from 
25-140mph...

Of course if you can't hit 60 in 2nd the extra gear change really hurts the 
0-60 time.
That'll be what makes me think of the Seicento as a slow car ;-)

PC Paul wrote:

>
> The limiter setting and low geared are not the same at all. Many bigger cars
> redline at or below 6000rpm too. Except the VVTi/VTeC crowd.
>
> I find I always want cars with higher gearing too, though. I would have
> loved to cruise at 1500rpm at 85 in my Carlton but instead it was doing just
> short of 3000rpm :-(


lol.  The max speed my car can do in 5th gear is 87mph, or 89mph if
you're in 4th. At 70mph in 5th I will be doing 4500rpm, or 5200rpm in
4th!  I worry a little about doing NSL roads with a cold engine :-(.
50mph in 5th is 3000rpm!


> There's plenty of room for longer ratios when 5th can happily cover from
> 25-140mph...
>
> Of course if you can't hit 60 in 2nd the extra gear change really hurts the
> 0-60 time.
> That'll be what makes me think of the Seicento as a slow car ;-)


That's probably one reason why people tend to say that Seicento
Sportings feel faster than they look on paper.  They have the same
gearing as my car, so their 0-60mph time will probably suffer.

In 3rd gear I can just reach 60mph lol.

petermcmillan_uk@yahoo.com wrote:

> PC Paul wrote:
>>
>> The limiter setting and low geared are not the same at all. Many
>> bigger cars redline at or below 6000rpm too. Except the VVTi/VTeC
>> crowd.
>>
>> I find I always want cars with higher gearing too, though. I would
>> have loved to cruise at 1500rpm at 85 in my Carlton but instead it
>> was doing just short of 3000rpm :-(
>
> lol.  The max speed my car can do in 5th gear is 87mph, or 89mph if
> you're in 4th. At 70mph in 5th I will be doing 4500rpm, or 5200rpm in
> 4th!  I worry a little about doing NSL roads with a cold engine :-(.
> 50mph in 5th is 3000rpm!


That's verging on dangerous in traffic with 'real' cars... in the same way 
mopeds are!

But I can see now why you drive around at max revs. You don't get a choice!


>
>> There's plenty of room for longer ratios when 5th can happily cover
>> from 25-140mph...
>>
>> Of course if you can't hit 60 in 2nd the extra gear change really
>> hurts the 0-60 time.
>> That'll be what makes me think of the Seicento as a slow car ;-)


'twas a joke ;-)


> That's probably one reason why people tend to say that Seicento
> Sportings feel faster than they look on paper.  They have the same
> gearing as my car, so their 0-60mph time will probably suffer.


little, low, noisy always makes it feel a lot faster.


> In 3rd gear I can just reach 60mph lol.


My first 1100 Escort (an old 41bhp Mk 2 Popular Plus) couldn't hit 70 on a 
flat road in *any* gear... I feel your pain!

For those of a sporty inclination, that was a massive 44.8 bhp/ton, with a 
tarmac shredding 52lb.ft. of torque. Makes you drool, doesn't it ;-)

"Stu"  wrote in message
news:Xns96A0D5D48E3CBnobodyhomecom@216.196.109.144...

> petermcmillan_uk@yahoo.com wrote in
> news:1122489788.098551.46260@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> >
> > lol, I wouldn't change down to 2nd at anything faster than 35mph
> > (usually no more than 30).  The top speed in 2nd is a little over
> > 40mph, and that's right on the limiter.
> >
> >
> Seicentos are quite low geared, aren't they? My car will hit 60 in 2nd; I
> use it for overtaking anything doing less than 45 (with a double declutch,
> of course :-). When I did advanced driving, they forbid gear changes while
> overtaking. A silly rule, IMHO. It prevents you from changing down for
> better acceleration, meaning that safe overtaking requires one to have a
> very long stretch of clear road (quite a rarity) or a supercar with
> enormous torque! Another silly one: you're not allowed to change down
while
> braking. Just try braking to turn down a side road, leaving yourself
enough
> time to release the brake and change down before staring to turn, and
> you'll understand where I'm coming from :-)


Just one of the reasons I'm not interested in taking an advanced driving
course.
I've no doubt there are things I could learn, but if it's at the expense of
unlearning techniques that are safe, but just don't conform to their
'system', I'll carry on, and "Do it my way" :-)
Mike.

wrote in message
news:1122489788.098551.46260@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> Mike G wrote:
> >
> > Presumably double declutching you no longer get the crunch when changing
> > down into 2nd.
>
> Yeah, you're right!
>
> > Get into the habit, and you wont wear your synchros out. :-)
>
> Yeah, I hope to get into the habit.  It's a shame that my syncro is
> going :-(
>
> > Although it can be used when changing up or down, in a car I mainly only
> > double declutch when changing down at relatively high speeds. Maybe
between
> > 50 and 80mph. At slower speeds I usually let the synchros do the work.
>
> lol, I wouldn't change down to 2nd at anything faster than 35mph
> (usually no more than 30).  The top speed in 2nd is a little over
> 40mph, and that's right on the limiter.


I was thinking of changes down from 5th to 4th or 4th to 3rd when I said
50 - 80mph.
Mike.

On 27 Jul 2005 13:09:33 -0700, petermcmillan_uk@yahoo.com wrote:


> Stu wrote:
>> petermcmillan_uk@yahoo.com wrote in
>> news:1122489788.098551.46260@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>>
>>> lol, I wouldn't change down to 2nd at anything faster than 35mph
>>> (usually no more than 30).  The top speed in 2nd is a little over
>>> 40mph, and that's right on the limiter.
>>>
>>>
>> Seicentos are quite low geared, aren't they? My car will hit 60 in 2nd; I
>> use it for overtaking anything doing less than 45 (with a double declutch,
>> of course :-).
> 
> I wish my car was like that.  The limiter is around 6000rpm, so it is
> pretty low geared.  The new Aygo is aparently 'good for more than 50mph
> in 2nd', it may not sound good to you guys, but I'd love that.


My focus would never get to 6000rpm. Mind you it's only doing 2300rpm at 70
in top.

Gearing and rev limiters are not related.

In article , 
nobody@home.com says...

> petermcmillan_uk@yahoo.com wrote in
> news:1122489788.098551.46260@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: 
> 
> > 
> > lol, I wouldn't change down to 2nd at anything faster than 35mph
> > (usually no more than 30).  The top speed in 2nd is a little over
> > 40mph, and that's right on the limiter.
> > 
> > 
> Seicentos are quite low geared, aren't they? My car will hit 60 in 2nd; I 
> use it for overtaking anything doing less than 45 (with a double declutch, 
> of course :-). When I did advanced driving, they forbid gear changes while 
> overtaking. A silly rule, IMHO. It prevents you from changing down for 
> better acceleration, meaning that safe overtaking requires one to have a 
> very long stretch of clear road (quite a rarity) or a supercar with 
> enormous torque! Another silly one: you're not allowed to change down while 
> braking. Just try braking to turn down a side road, leaving yourself enough 
> time to release the brake and change down before staring to turn, and 
> you'll understand where I'm coming from :-)


I'm in the middle of my training, and it's not causing me any problems - 
it's all about planning and timing. Changing down to accelerate when 
overtaking is fine so long as you do it /before you start the manouver/. 
And you're right, occasions for /safe/ overtaking are becoming more and 
more rare, which is why they also teach patience. 

Changing down when braking is also fine - as long as you're not changing 
direction as well, the thinking being that this gives front wheel drive 
cars too much to do: brake, change direction, and react to possible 
changes in engine speed to the front wheels as you change gear. Since 
mine is RWD, I get more leeway :->

Cheers,
-- 
James Dore,
IT Officer,
New College
james.dore@new / it-support@new

James Dore  wrote in
news:MPG.1d52aa39dde2c28f989cf3@news.ox.ac.uk: 

> 
> I'm in the middle of my training, and it's not causing me any problems
> - it's all about planning and timing. Changing down to accelerate when
> overtaking is fine so long as you do it /before you start the
> manouver/. And you're right, occasions for /safe/ overtaking are
> becoming more and more rare, which is why they also teach patience. 
> 

Well, in most circumstances, I find that I meed to drop 2 gears to get a 
level of acceleration that is adequate for safe overtaking. If I do this, 
move out (before accelerating, of course ;-), then floor it, I find that 
I'm hitting the rev limiter about half way through the manouver. OK, you 
could just drop one gear, but in my case this does not provide adequate 
acceleration and although my car is no flying machine, it isn't slower 
than average. That's why I think it's a silly rule.


> Changing down when braking is also fine - as long as you're not
> changing direction as well, the thinking being that this gives front
> wheel drive cars too much to do: brake, change direction, and react to
> possible changes in engine speed to the front wheels as you change
> gear. Since mine is RWD, I get more leeway :->
> 

What you describe is fair comment. However, the bloke who taught me would 
*not* let me brake & change gear simultaneously, even when travelling in 
a straight line. This meant that I had to brake, then release the brake, 
then change down and let the clutch back in, all before beginning to make 
the turn. If you do it this way, you'll find you have to brake a *lot* 
earlier and harder. IMO, the car wasn't comfortable with it, because the 
engine was trying to push the car on and I was standing on the brakes, 
trying to slow it enough to leave me enough time to do the gear change 
with no brakes. That's my second biggest annoyance with IAM principles, 
don't get me started on the wheel shuffling!



-- 
Stuart Sharp