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Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
Spent the weekend in Paris, for reasons that will eventually appear on
http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk.
Flew with EasyJet to Paris CdG, and thence by train into central Paris
(Gare du Nord) and after a wander along the Seine back out from the Gare
de Lyon to Melun, where the gig was held in the grounds, orangery, and
subterranean caverns of a rather spectacular chateau.
The return trip involved catching the 04:45 from Melun back to Gare de
Lyon, changing (cross platform) for a one stop hop to Chatelet Les
Halles, from where we got an express service back to the airport,
stopping only at Gare du Nord on the way.
The rolling stock was all EMU, single deck between the airport and
central Paris, double-deckers on the Melun run.
Overall, the experience was good, the staff were friendly and helpful
(and all seemed to speak at least functional English), the trains were
punctual and while sometimes crowded we always got seats. It was also
obvious that the French have invested far more in their railways than we
have, absolutely everything, down to the most minor of sidings, was
electrified, and while here a similar trip might pass acres of tacky
housing and cheap industrial units built on railway land, there we
passed seemingly endless railway yards, junctions, sidings, and
intersecting routes.
The scenery on the ride in was not what one expects of Paris though -
grim industrial slums alternating with the railway yards, occasionally
punctuated by what looked like unofficial gypsy encampments. There was
graffiti everywhere, disfiguring an already grim scene. And this brings
the first rail-based criticism - all the trains we travelled in had
universally grubby windows. Granted, the window-scratching plague is
hardly the railway's fault, and unlikely to be solved by anything short
of placing police in every coach and forcibly amputating the fingers of
the convicted, but that doesn't mean they can't at least wash the
outside of the coaches on a regular basis.
It was easy to work out where we needed to go, though the situation was
confused a bit as even though we explained to the clerk at the airport
that we wanted to go to Melun (which is in Z6), she sold us Z1-5 Paris
Visite cards. There were no ticket checks on the trains at all, and on
arrival at Melun the exit was via simple one-way doors, so no tickets
needed - we only found out about the problem when I attempted to
re-enter the station to enquire about return trains on the Sunday
morning. Fortunately a local held the exit door open so I could nip back
in and find a stationmaster on Platform 1, who explained the zone
situation and advised us to buy singles to the first station in Z5 when
we needed to go back. He didn't attempt to charge us for the extra ride
out we'd already taken however.
As it happened the 04:45 stopped at the boundary station on the way back
in, however had it not done so (we were originally advised to take the
05:37, which is I belive non-stop to Gare de Lyon), would we have had
UK-style "must stop at the boundary" issues or would it have been OK?
Was well impressed to find the station manned at 03:xx when we returned
on Sunday morning, the automatic ticket machines were easy to use, not
sure if the three serious looking security/police blokes (in riot-style
overalls, instead of uniform!) who turned up had anything to do with the
somewhat knackered Goths half sleeping on the platform or not. :-)
Back at the chateau we'd seen an interesting clash between the English
and French ways of doing things. I have heard it said that the French
are a nation who love elegance and will do all they can to avoid an
"inelegant" solution, wheras the British are all "what's in it for us"
pragmatists who'll accept just about anything as long as it gets the
desired result. The hour and a half that was spent debating who was to
be given a lift where and in which car was en entirely novel experience
- we just wanted to get on with it! :-)
The gig itself? Totally hellfire! Incredible setting, top notch PA,
sound guys, and lighting rig, a complete absence of all the annoying
"emergency" sineage that clutters up UK venues, and a slew of bands each
determined to out-do the others in style, drive and emotion. The booze
flowed like water yet there was no trouble, just happy people. Neat
little system of deposits stopped people throwing their beer cups away,
which prevented the usual festival litter problem of broken plastic
everywhere.
Paris rocks, I'll definitely be back. Vive la Gothique!
The point of this post? Given the way many of us talk about how much
better BR was than the privatised railway, I found myself wondering, at
5am on Sunday morning, staggering blearilly across the starkly
bare-flourescent-lit metro platforms at the Gare de Lyon, watching more
rather grubby double-deck units roll busily past at an adjacent
platform, is this how BR used to be back in the 80s? Grubby, a bit
shabby, but reasonably efficient with what it had?
One final comment - whoever invented French platform numbering was
clearly on a mission to confuse! Melun station has many through
platforms. From what I remember, they were numbered, from the main
entrance, thus: 1, A, 2, 1b, 1a, 2b, 2a (except I think there was a "B"
in there somewhere too). It made no sense at all to me, can anyone
explain it?
NP: Inkubus Sukkubus - Witch Queen.
--
- Pyromancer Stormshadow.
http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk <-- Pagan Gothic Rock!
http://www.littlematchgirl.co.uk <-- Electronic Metal!
http://www.revival.stormshadow.com <-- The Gothic Revival.
Date:Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:26:33 +0100
Author:
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Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:26:33 +0100, Pyromancer
wrote:
>The point of this post? Given the way many of us talk about how much
>better BR was than the privatised railway, I found myself wondering, at
>5am on Sunday morning, staggering blearilly across the starkly
>bare-flourescent-lit metro platforms at the Gare de Lyon, watching more
>rather grubby double-deck units roll busily past at an adjacent
>platform, is this how BR used to be back in the 80s? Grubby, a bit
>shabby, but reasonably efficient with what it had?
My experiences of BR would certainly echo a lot of the above. As a
poor young serviceman in the early 80's I relied on BR a lot to get me
about.
When I was at RAF Cosford back in 1983, the Friday night Intercity
from Shrewsbury would stop at the halt so that all the trainees could
get to Wolverhampton and get home for the weekend from there (I used
to catch the IC down to Euston - which was very good). With the
massive amoint of trainees going through the training system at that
time the usual Wolves -Shrewsbury DMU service just could not cope. So
someone at Cosford phoned up BR and they accomodated very helpfully.
They also stopped the Intercity there on a Sunday night too. All very
geared to the needs of the users. IIRC (it was a long time ago now)
that was a 47 hauled service with Mk 2 coaches
Travelling cross country was always a bit of a lottery - especially at
weekends.
In my experience, BR did work wonders with what it had and within the
drip feed of funding that it got from the government.
--
regards
Tex
Date:Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:21:56 +0100
Author:
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Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
> back in 1983, the Friday night Intercity
> from Shrewsbury would stop at the halt
Rather OT, but at least in '83 Shrewsbury had a through service to
London. Not the dreadful dogbox then change at that abomination the
call BNS.
Date:26 Jul 2005 02:27:23 -0700
Author:
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Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
Pyromancer wrote:
> Given the way many of us talk about how much
> better BR was than the privatised railway, I found myself wondering, at
> 5am on Sunday morning, staggering blearilly across the starkly
> bare-flourescent-lit metro platforms at the Gare de Lyon, watching more
> rather grubby double-deck units roll busily past at an adjacent
> platform, is this how BR used to be back in the 80s? Grubby, a bit
> shabby, but reasonably efficient with what it had?
I don't BR ever had long breaks in main line services
in the middle of every day to allow them to do track maintenance!
I think if you go outside the Paris suburbs and off the TGV lines
you might find service frequencies rather disappointing.
Charlie
Date:Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:41:07 +0100
Author:
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Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
On 26 Jul 2005 02:27:23 -0700, "1501" wrote:
>Rather OT, but at least in '83 Shrewsbury had a through service to
>London. Not the dreadful dogbox then change at that abomination the
>call BNS.
I'm going to bite and ask again: why does Shrewsbury justify a through
service to London? The railway naturally caters for small flows
through connections.
Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.
Date:Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:35:24 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
In article ,
Neil Williams wrote:
>On 26 Jul 2005 02:27:23 -0700, "1501" wrote:
>
>>Rather OT, but at least in '83 Shrewsbury had a through service to
>>London. Not the dreadful dogbox then change at that abomination the
>>call BNS.
Poster creatively overlooks the 158 services off the Cambrian and
the Sh&Ch...
>I'm going to bite and ask again: why does Shrewsbury justify a through
>service to London? The railway naturally caters for small flows
>through connections.
Of course it doesn't, as loadings on Shrewsbury ICs showed every
time they were provided. Through services to the Great Wen are,
however, a sort of fertility symbol for some.
We get the same kind of bovine aftermath from the S&A lobby
and in truth, no, it mattereth not. What would be nice would be
more trains as far as Salop (benefits those poor unfortunates
stranded on the easternmost border of civilisation, too) and
faster running times from Salop to Brummagen for the widest
choice of connections on to - well, pretty much anywhere.
--
Andy Breen ~ Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)
Date:26 Jul 2005 19:53:02 +0100
Author:
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Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
Neil Williams wrote:
> I'm going to bite and ask again: why does Shrewsbury justify a through
> service to London? The railway naturally caters for small flows
> through connections.
Why do Prestatyn, Macclesfield, Lowestoft, Kingussie, St Erth ..(etc)
.... have through trains to London? I still think Shrewsbury could
justify a service if it also extended to Aberystwyth or Wrexham.
Charlie
Date:Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:43:23 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:43:23 GMT, Charlie Hulme
wrote:
>Why do Prestatyn, Macclesfield, Lowestoft, Kingussie, St Erth ..(etc)
>... have through trains to London?
Because they happen to lie on the line of route, so they may as well
have said services than a local DMU. In the NWC's case, Holyhead and
the ferries are significant.
I have little doubt that Wigan wouldn't have a service to London were
it not on the WCML; nor, probably, would Warrington, nor Tamworth,
Nuneaton etc.
> I still think Shrewsbury could
>justify a service if it also extended to Aberystwyth or Wrexham.
Possibly. However, a better service is probably provided by many
connectional journey opportunities per day than one through service.
Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.
Date:Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:21:59 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
Charlie Hulme wrote:
> I don't BR ever had long breaks in main line services
> in the middle of every day to allow them to do track maintenance!
A couple of hours each day with the timetable planned around it may be.
Unlike in this country, what the SNCF don't need to do is completely close
down main lines weekend after weekend to allow upgrading or maintenance to
take part.
--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
Date:Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:12:01 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
Neil Williams wrote:
> Because they happen to lie on the line of route, so they may as well
> have said services than a local DMU. In the NWC's case, Holyhead and
> the ferries are significant.
I very much doubt traffic from London to Holyhead to connect to ferries to
Ireland is enough to justify running through trains.
--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
Date:Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:14:56 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
Charlie Hulme wrote:
> Why do Prestatyn, Macclesfield, Lowestoft, Kingussie, St Erth ..(etc)
> ... have through trains to London? I still think Shrewsbury could
> justify a service if it also extended to Aberystwyth or Wrexham.
These places justify a through service to London because the train is
passing by them anyway, so they only need a smaller number of
passengers to use them to merit a stop.
Aberystwyth has a population of less than 20k, about a quarter the
size of Shrewsbury - if Salop hasn't got enough passengers to make a
service to Livingstonegrad pay its way then running it from Aber will
be a colossal exercise in wasting money. Wrecsam is a slightly better
size, but there are still no large centres of population on the route.
Don't get me wrong, I would like to see regular services from London
to Shrewsbury (although I don't know that I would run them any further
than that) - but I don't think that there is the ridership there to
justify any of the service options - passengers will be better served
with Alphaline standard local express services to Wolves or Black Hole
and onward connections - this will enable a more regular service to
run with trains appropriate to the service provided.
--
Stevie D
\\\\\ ///// Bringing dating agencies to the
\\\\\\\__X__/////// common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________
Date:Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:17:29 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:26:33 +0100, Pyromancer
wrote:
>The scenery on the ride in was not what one expects of Paris though -
>grim industrial slums alternating with the railway yards, occasionally
>punctuated by what looked like unofficial gypsy encampments. There was
>graffiti everywhere, disfiguring an already grim scene. And this brings
>the first rail-based criticism - all the trains we travelled in had
>universally grubby windows. Granted, the window-scratching plague is
>hardly the railway's fault, and unlikely to be solved by anything short
>of placing police in every coach and forcibly amputating the fingers of
>the convicted, but that doesn't mean they can't at least wash the
>outside of the coaches on a regular basis.
I had one trip a few years back, when a lady from the company
concerned met me at CdeG to escort me to their offices.
On the RER into Gare du Nord she commented that the area around the
Stade de France was "tres triste". Lots of immigrants and very
down-at-heel.
Their offices were on the west side of Gare du Nord, so I had the
experience of walking over that long bridge.
--
Terry Harper
Website Coordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org
Date:Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:27:53 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:43:23 GMT, Charlie Hulme
wrote:
>Neil Williams wrote:
>
>> I'm going to bite and ask again: why does Shrewsbury justify a through
>> service to London? The railway naturally caters for small flows
>> through connections.
>
>Why do Prestatyn, Macclesfield, Lowestoft, Kingussie, St Erth ..(etc)
>... have through trains to London? I still think Shrewsbury could
>justify a service if it also extended to Aberystwyth or Wrexham.
Of course, back in the good old days (1949-50) of chocolate and cream
it was on the main line from Paddington to Birkenhead Woodside, via
Chester. I used to travel from Hereford to Chester on the through
carriage that came up from Cardiff and was detached at Shrewsbury,
spending 15 or 20 minutes in a siding until the London train came in.
There seemed to be no lack of patronage in those days. A few years
later (1953), it was Hodnet to Wellington, past all the rhododendrons,
and then a change into a London train at Wellington. In the end I
found that Midland Red to Shrewsbury, train from Shrewsbury to
Hereford, then Red & White to Coleford was the fastest and best route.
Might not London-Chester be a better service to serve Shrewsbury?
--
Terry Harper
Website Coordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org
Date:Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:36:31 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:26:33 +0100, Pyromancer
wrote:
[snip]
>Overall, the experience was good, the staff were friendly and helpful
>(and all seemed to speak at least functional English), the trains were
>punctual and while sometimes crowded we always got seats. It was also
>obvious that the French have invested far more in their railways than we
>have, absolutely everything, down to the most minor of sidings, was
>electrified, and while here a similar trip might pass acres of tacky
>housing and cheap industrial units built on railway land, there we
>passed seemingly endless railway yards, junctions, sidings, and
>intersecting routes.
It's largely a matter of public subsidy. Railways are expensive things
to run, and either they're paid for from taxes or fares, or they don't
happen. I don't remember too many 4.00am services in the BR days as
the public subsidy was low then also.
Best regards, Paul
--
Paul Sherwin Consulting http://paulsherwin.co.uk
Date:Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:27:05 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
> Why do Prestatyn, Macclesfield, Lowestoft, Kingussie, St Erth
St Erth is the junction for St Ives, which I imagine has a fair few
people in the summer at least, but aside from that no reason (1 miles
from the local village) to have a service at all, certainly no more
than the service nearby Hayle gets (just the crappy wessex trains)
The sleeper doesn't stop at St Erth on the way up unfortunatly, you
have to get a lift to Penzance. It does stop on the way down though,
which is useful for me :)
Date:26 Jul 2005 17:19:00 -0700
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
"Charlie Hulme" wrote in message
news:LfxFe.9482$YL5.7079@newsfe2-win.ntli.net...
> Neil Williams wrote:
>
> > I'm going to bite and ask again: why does Shrewsbury justify a through
> > service to London? The railway naturally caters for small flows
> > through connections.
>
> Why do Prestatyn, Macclesfield, Lowestoft, Kingussie, St Erth ..(etc)
> ... have through trains to London? I still think Shrewsbury could
> justify a service if it also extended to Aberystwyth or Wrexham.
>
> Charlie
> Maye because otherwise the said trains would pass through those stations
without stopping. Opportunity to pick up a few fares for little cost?
Date:Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:15:46 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
"Phil Richards" wrote in message
news:1jvew73zyrcci$.1bg2ms5y0m2j8$.dlg@40tude.net...
> Neil Williams wrote:
>
> > Because they happen to lie on the line of route, so they may as well
> > have said services than a local DMU. In the NWC's case, Holyhead and
> > the ferries are significant.
>
> I very much doubt traffic from London to Holyhead to connect to ferries to
> Ireland is enough to justify running through trains.
Well somebody does. What facts do you rely on?
If the Govt.( UK not Irish) is prepared to use our money to subsidise Irish
traffic isn't that justification enough?
>
> --
> Phil Richards
> London, UK
> Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
Date:Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:20:21 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
"Phil Richards" wrote in message
news:1uar4j9re2apx.4mfbonkc159t$.dlg@40tude.net...
> Charlie Hulme wrote:
>
> > I don't BR ever had long breaks in main line services
> > in the middle of every day to allow them to do track maintenance!
>
> A couple of hours each day with the timetable planned around it may be.
> Unlike in this country, what the SNCF don't need to do is completely close
> down main lines weekend after weekend to allow upgrading or maintenance to
> take part.
>
> --
> Phil Richards
> London, UK
> Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
My recollection is that the WCML in Lancashire was quiet most of the day but
with a few long distance trains in the early afternoon. Gangers inspected
the track and knocked it about a bit with long hammers between the
infrequent trains in daylight hours. Also at weekends there were plenty of
local diversions available.
Date:Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:24:08 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
Stevie D wrote:
> Aberystwyth has a population of less than 20k, about a quarter the
> size of Shrewsbury - if Salop hasn't got enough passengers to make a
> service to Livingstonegrad pay its way then running it from Aber will
> be a colossal exercise in wasting money.
Why would it be a colossal waste of money if it ran in the path of
an existing Cambrian line train? The real problem is the obsession
with getting rid of all 'slow' trains from the line to Euston
to save a few minutes for Manchester passengers, so anything
that runs into Euston has to be 125 with tilt.
> passengers will be better served
> with Alphaline standard local express services to Wolves or Black Hole
> and onward connections - this will enable a more regular service to
> run with trains appropriate to the service provided.
See other thread about passengers preferring a direct train.
Charlie
Date:Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:42:09 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:35:24 GMT, Neil Williams wrote:
> On 26 Jul 2005 02:27:23 -0700, "1501" wrote:
>
>>Rather OT, but at least in '83 Shrewsbury had a through service to
>>London. Not the dreadful dogbox then change at that abomination the
>>call BNS.
>
> I'm going to bite and ask again: why does Shrewsbury justify a through
> service to London?
It doesn't, but the irony is that the inhabitants of Shrewsbury seem not
to appreciate natural selection.
--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632793.html
(25 266 at Manchester Victoria, 7 Jun 1985)
Date:Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:05:46 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:12:01 +0100, Phil Richards wrote in
<1uar4j9re2apx.4mfbonkc159t$.dlg@40tude.net>, seen in uk.railway:
[...]
> Unlike in this country, what the SNCF don't need to do is completely close
> down main lines weekend after weekend to allow upgrading or maintenance to
> take part.
No, but as you posted to your ERG mailing list, they *do* close lines
for a weekend without providing so much as one taxi to bridge the
closed section.
I think I'd rather have the regular closures with a semblance of
service provided than just being dumped with no other assistance.
--
Ross, Lincoln, UK
We're *not* afraid
http://www.werenotafraid.com
Date:Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:24:05 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
"Phil Richards" wrote in message
news:1uar4j9re2apx.4mfbonkc159t$.dlg@40tude.net...
> Charlie Hulme wrote:
>
>> I don't BR ever had long breaks in main line services
>> in the middle of every day to allow them to do track maintenance!
>
> A couple of hours each day with the timetable planned around it may be.
> Unlike in this country, what the SNCF don't need to do is completely close
> down main lines weekend after weekend to allow upgrading or maintenance to
> take part.
>
> --
> Phil Richards
> London, UK
> Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
Afraid to say that they do sometimes, Phil- the line along the Cote d'Azur
will be shut for a couple of weekends once the summer holidays are over,
with no replacement bus service.
Brian
Date:Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:37:19 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:15:46 GMT, "Tom Haliax"
wrote:
> Maye because otherwise the said trains would pass through those stations
>without stopping. Opportunity to pick up a few fares for little cost?
Or to provide a useful service for little cost. Most branch line
local stations are similar - I can't imagine Rufford justifying any
public transport whatsoever on its own (for example), never mind a
train every hour and a quarter and a bus every hour. However, the
bus may as well stop as it's passing through, and the train may as
well collect passengers as it stops to exchange tokens anyway.
Most of the S&C intermediate stations are similar, though that was
built long enough ago for part of the justification to be a hope (in
most cases not fulfilled) that towns would spring up around the
stations.
Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.
Date:Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:51:01 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:24:05 +0100, Ross
wrote:
>I think I'd rather have the regular closures with a semblance of
>service provided than just being dumped with no other assistance.
Agreed. Much as it pains me to say it, Fraser Eagle and the likes
appear to have made such operations rather more professional than in
the past, as well.
Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.
Date:Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:54:00 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:37:19 +0100, "BH Williams"
wrote:
>Afraid to say that they do sometimes, Phil- the line along the Cote d'Azur
>will be shut for a couple of weekends once the summer holidays are over,
>with no replacement bus service.
"Passengers are advised to use their cars"?
DB do longer closures as well, though at least they do tend to provide
buses.
Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.
Date:Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:55:07 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
"Neil Williams" wrote in message
news:42e7c88c.819217@news.tesco.net...
> On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:15:46 GMT, "Tom Haliax"
> wrote:
>
> > Maye because otherwise the said trains would pass through those stations
> >without stopping. Opportunity to pick up a few fares for little cost?
>
> Or to provide a useful service for little cost. Most branch line
> local stations are similar - I can't imagine Rufford justifying any
> public transport whatsoever on its own (for example), never mind a
> train every hour and a quarter and a bus every hour. However, the
> bus may as well stop as it's passing through, and the train may as
> well collect passengers as it stops to exchange tokens anyway.
>
> Most of the S&C intermediate stations are similar, though that was
> built long enough ago for part of the justification to be a hope (in
> most cases not fulfilled) that towns would spring up around the
> stations.
>
> Neil
>
> --
> Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
> When replying please use neil at the above domain
> 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.
Towns at Ribblehead, Garsdale etc. ?
More likely to pick up freight for/from farmers, quarries, coal merchants
and so on.
Date:Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:01:33 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:01:33 GMT, "Tom Haliax"
wrote:
>Towns at Ribblehead, Garsdale etc. ?
I believe that was the aim, yes.
>More likely to pick up freight for/from farmers, quarries, coal merchants
>and so on.
Which wouldn't have necessarily caused the opening of passenger
stations, other, I suppose, than to transport staff to the goods
station. These would be more likely catered for by railway cottages
like those at Garsdale, however.
Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.
Date:Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:32:53 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
Ross wrote:
> No, but as you posted to your ERG mailing list, they *do* close lines
> for a weekend without providing so much as one taxi to bridge the
> closed section.
Actually the blockades represent just over 24 hours for two separate
weekends which ain't bad for a mainline with very heavy traffic. We're
probably talking about a fraction of the time to carry out the same amount
maintenance work that would have taken numerous weekend blockades on say
the WCML.
However Whilst I do agree that the lack of replacement buses isn't
acceptable, timetables have been published for several weeks in advance to
reflect this. Again the latter seems to be a little more difficult for the
British railway industry to be able to cope with.
> I think I'd rather have the regular closures with a semblance of
> service provided than just being dumped with no other assistance.
I'd rather have a railway that is maintained far more efficiently with far
fewer closures affecting passenger traffic.
--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
Date:Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:09:45 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
"Neil Williams" wrote in message
news:42e7d300.3494865@news.tesco.net...
> On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:01:33 GMT, "Tom Haliax"
> wrote:
>
> >Towns at Ribblehead, Garsdale etc. ?
>
> I believe that was the aim, yes.
>
> >More likely to pick up freight for/from farmers, quarries, coal merchants
> >and so on.
>
> Which wouldn't have necessarily caused the opening of passenger
> stations, other, I suppose, than to transport staff to the goods
> station. These would be more likely catered for by railway cottages
> like those at Garsdale, however.
>
> Neil
>
> --
> I'm fascinated to hear that. Where did the info. come from please?
I would have thought freight traffic from small rural stations was far more
lucrative than passenger traffic. Where were the goods stations not
adjoining passenger stations ( other than Blea Moor which would come under
the Ribblehead stationmaster I think. )? My thoughts not based on
documentary evidence so shoot me down.
Date:Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:20:49 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
Charlie Hulme wrote:
> Why would it be a colossal waste of money if it ran in the path of
> an existing Cambrian line train? The real problem is the obsession
> with getting rid of all 'slow' trains from the line to Euston
> to save a few minutes for Manchester passengers, so anything
> that runs into Euston has to be 125 with tilt.
The traffic between Wolves and London justifies a 9-car train, and I
would suspect generally needs an 8-car train to provide enough seats
for passengers to be comfortable.
The current journey time for a fast train from Wolverhampton to
Shrewsbury, calling at Telford and Wellington, is about 35 minutes. On
the assumption that running 125mph trains could reduce this time [1],
you are looking at about an hour extra on a round trip from London to
London, with a similar length layover as the trains get now.
This would cause problems for timetabling the trains. The only way for
it to work well, and without having trains sitting idle or running
ECS, would be to have an hourly service from London to Shrewsbury -
any less frequent than that and trains will be stacking up in the
wrong places.
There is then the dilemma of running diesels under the wires. The line
from Euston to Wolves is electrified - so it makes far more sense to
run electric trains over this section. But it's not possible to run
electric trains through to Shrewsbury, and there certainly won't be
the money to wire up the extra 30 miles. So it would end up with
diesel trains running 125 miles each way under the wires - a real
waste of resources. And a problem for Virgin, because they don't have
the spare diesel trains to do that.
The upshot of this is that VWC would need to diagram 12 Voyager or
SuperVoyager units on this service - 5 hours round trip plus
turnaround time, but all trains will be formed of two units. Plus
spares. Where are they going to get the trains from?
You could save one unit by splitting the train at Wolves - running one
portion on to Salop, and pairing the remaining unit with the unit
returning from Salop, for the run back to London - a sort of 'stepping
back' arrangement ... this would also reduce the wastefulness of
running an 8/9/10 car train between Birmingham and Salop, which I can
not believe is ever even close to necessary.
That is why through services to Shrewsbury would be a waste of money.
[1] I don't know how valid an assumption this is, but given the
insistence on 125mph tilting DMUs, I suspect that a few minutes could
be shaved off. Virgin's usual plan would be to axe the stop at
Wellington to save time, but I'm not sure we want to go down that
road...
--
Stevie D
\\\\\ ///// Bringing dating agencies to the
\\\\\\\__X__/////// common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________
Date:Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:09:17 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:09:45 +0100, Phil Richards wrote in
<b1ibpck1unp6.i1ukb06vd2u9$.dlg@40tude.net>, seen in uk.railway:
> Ross wrote:
>
> > No, but as you posted to your ERG mailing list, they *do* close lines
> > for a weekend without providing so much as one taxi to bridge the
> > closed section.
>
> Actually the blockades represent just over 24 hours for two separate
> weekends which ain't bad for a mainline with very heavy traffic. We're
> probably talking about a fraction of the time to carry out the same amount
> maintenance work that would have taken numerous weekend blockades on say
> the WCML.
Maybe, but it doesn't change the fact that SNCF's attitude is (yet
again) "F$ck you, we're not playing today and we don't care if you
need to get anywhere".
It's an attitude that Britain's railways already have to far too great
a degree and they really don't need a suggestion that doing to an even
greater extent is in any way acceptable.
> However Whilst I do agree that the lack of replacement buses isn't
> acceptable, timetables have been published for several weeks in advance to
> reflect this. Again the latter seems to be a little more difficult for the
> British railway industry to be able to cope with.
No attempt to provide a service is no attempt to provide a service and
is a disgrace, however much notice is given.
> > I think I'd rather have the regular closures with a semblance of
> > service provided than just being dumped with no other assistance.
>
> I'd rather have a railway that is maintained far more efficiently with far
> fewer closures affecting passenger traffic.
As long as you're also willing to accept the lack of useful services
that go with the SNCF attitude to service provision...
--
Ross, Lincoln, UK
We're *not* afraid
http://www.werenotafraid.com
Date:Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:21:49 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:21:49 +0100, Ross
wrote:
>No attempt to provide a service is no attempt to provide a service and
>is a disgrace, however much notice is given.
Quite. I'd rather have our railway than SNCF any day. The advent of
125mph on the WCML has tipped the balance yet further in our small
country.
Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.
Date:Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:30:15 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Through a spectacle glass rose-tinted, is SNCF BR as-was?
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:20:49 GMT, "Tom Haliax"
wrote:
>> I'm fascinated to hear that. Where did the info. come from please?
>I would have thought freight traffic from small rural stations was far more
>lucrative than passenger traffic.
Quite possibly, though it was not the only reason for having them. A
settlement would, of course, increase both goods and passenger
traffic.
I don't have a specific source, but I'm sure Google would help.
> Where were the goods stations not
>adjoining passenger stations ( other than Blea Moor which would come under
>the Ribblehead stationmaster I think. )?
Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear on that. My suggestion was that if they
were not interested in passenger traffic, they'd have built only goods
stations. As this didn't happen...
Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.
Date:Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:51:54 GMT
Author:
|
|