Wandering across Blackfriars (Road) Bridge the other day after a fruitless 
attempt to find the wheelchair entrance to Blackfriars Station, I noticed a 
set of bridge piers between Blackfriars road and rail bridges. At the 
southern end is a large plaque relating to the London Chatham and Dover 
Railway. Does anyone know what happened to this bridge? Not that I think it 
was the wheelchair entrance to the station!

Ivor

"Ivor Sleeper"  wrote in message
news:dbr8j3$gq$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

> Wandering across Blackfriars (Road) Bridge the other day after a fruitless
> attempt to find the wheelchair entrance to Blackfriars Station, I noticed
a
> set of bridge piers between Blackfriars road and rail bridges. At the
> southern end is a large plaque relating to the London Chatham and Dover
> Railway. Does anyone know what happened to this bridge? Not that I think
it
> was the wheelchair entrance to the station!
>
> Ivor
>
>


Arhh the memorable days at FBC are coming floating back... NOT!

but yes know what you mean and have also see the plaque.

The D.

Ivor Sleeper wrote:

> Wandering across Blackfriars (Road) Bridge the other day after a
> fruitless attempt to find the wheelchair entrance to Blackfriars
> Station, I noticed a set of bridge piers between Blackfriars road
> and rail bridges. At the southern end is a large plaque relating to
> the London Chatham and Dover Railway. Does anyone know what
> happened to this bridge? Not that I think it was the wheelchair
> entrance to the station!


It was the original Blackfriars Railway Bridge, built by the LCDR in
1864.  It led to Ludgate Hill station, and thence to Farringdon via Snow
Hill Tunnel.  The present Blackfriars station and its separate bridge
date from 1886.  After electrification, Ludgate Hill station was closed
in 1929, but the line across the old bridge continued to be used by
cross-London freight trains for some years.  I don't know when the
bridge was demolished.

The only picture of the old bridge that I can find online is at
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10411965&wwwflag=2&imagepos=13
Note that this shows the original Blackfriars station on the *south*
bank.  Don't rely on the text, as I think it must be 1864, not 1863, and
the reference to the MDR building the bridge is certainly wrong.

-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

yyOn Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:58:11 +0000 (UTC), "Ivor Sleeper"
 wrote:


>Wandering across Blackfriars (Road) Bridge the other day after a fruitless 
>attempt to find the wheelchair entrance to Blackfriars Station, I noticed a 
>set of bridge piers between Blackfriars road and rail bridges. At the 
>southern end is a large plaque relating to the London Chatham and Dover 
>Railway. Does anyone know what happened to this bridge? Not that I think it 
>was the wheelchair entrance to the station!
>

Hit this group via Google. The subject of the bridge piers and their
previous occupants were explained some time ago but I can't personally
recall the dates and detauils.

Charles Ellson  wrote:

> Hit this group via Google. The subject of the bridge piers and their
> previous occupants were explained some time ago but I can't personally
> recall the dates and detauils.


See the bottom of:
http://www.loveplums.co.uk/Tube/HolbornViaduct.html

Theo

In message <l0i*4wfUq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 21:28:19 on Fri, 
22 Jul 2005, Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> 
remarked:


>http://www.loveplums.co.uk/Tube/HolbornViaduct.html


The map at the top of the page shows two other much discussed topics.

At the bottom of the map, the route of the Waterloo and City line, and 
in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station 
was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the north 
of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island next to 
the entrance to the BT HQ.
-- 
Roland Perry

In message <l0i*4wfUq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 21:28:19 on Fri, 
22 Jul 2005, Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> 
remarked:


>http://www.loveplums.co.uk/Tube/HolbornViaduct.html


The map at the top of the page shows two other much discussed topics.

At the bottom of the map, the route of the Waterloo and City line, and 
in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station 
was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the north 
of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island next to 
the entrance to the BT HQ.
-- 
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

> In message <l0i*4wfUq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 21:28:19 on Fri,
> 22 Jul 2005, Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
> remarked:
>
> >http://www.loveplums.co.uk/Tube/HolbornViaduct.html
>
> The map at the top of the page shows two other much discussed topics.
>
> At the bottom of the map, the route of the Waterloo and City line, and
> in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station
> was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the north
> of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island next to
> the entrance to the BT HQ.
> --
> Roland Perry


Most interesting. But what is the line in a tunnel that appears to lead
from Holdborn Viaduct Low-level station under Smithfields meat market
to Aldersgate (now Barbican) station?

Roland Perry wrote:

> In message <l0i*4wfUq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 21:28:19 on Fri,
> 22 Jul 2005, Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
> remarked:
>
> >http://www.loveplums.co.uk/Tube/HolbornViaduct.html
>
> The map at the top of the page shows two other much discussed topics.
>
> At the bottom of the map, the route of the Waterloo and City line, and
> in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station
> was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the north
> of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island next to
> the entrance to the BT HQ.
> --
> Roland Perry


Most interesting. But what is the line in a tunnel that appears to lead
from Holdborn Viaduct Low-level station under Smithfields meat market
to Aldersgate (now Barbican) station?

In article <FWdKry$a8e4CFAjq@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk>, Roland 
Perry wrote:


> At the bottom of the map, the route of the Waterloo and City line, and 
> in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station 
> was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the north 
> of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island next to 
> the entrance to the BT HQ.


Post Office station was part of/adjacent to the Central Telegraph Office 
on the NE corner of Newgate Street and King Edward Street. Before the 
bomb-damaged building was demolished, the station entrance could still be 
seen. The "Post Office" in question was King Edward Building which 
contains/was on the site of the National Postal Museum. The station 
entrance was moved from the western to the eastern end of the platforms 
and escalators installed in place of lifts. St Pauls is like Chancery 
Lane, with one line on top of the other to fit within the public highway 
above.

-- 

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

In message , at 
06:33:18 on Sat, 23 Jul 2005, Mizter T  remarked:

>Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <l0i*4wfUq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 21:28:19 on Fri,
>> 22 Jul 2005, Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
>> remarked:
>>
>> >http://www.loveplums.co.uk/Tube/HolbornViaduct.html
>>
>> The map at the top of the page shows two other much discussed topics.
>>
>> At the bottom of the map, the route of the Waterloo and City line, and
>> in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station
>> was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the north
>> of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island next to
>> the entrance to the BT HQ.
>
>Most interesting. But what is the line in a tunnel that appears to lead
>from Holdborn Viaduct Low-level station under Smithfields meat market
>to Aldersgate (now Barbican) station?


I don't know its name, but it would seem to be the third side of the 
triangle there.
-- 
Roland Perry

In article , Mizter 
T wrote:

> 
> Most interesting. But what is the line in a tunnel that appears to lead
> from Holdborn Viaduct Low-level station under Smithfields meat market
> to Aldersgate (now Barbican) station?


The access to Smithfield GW goods station, Whitecross Street Midland goods 
station and the Widened Lines to Moorgate. What you refer to as Hol(d)born 
Viaduct Low Level is actually Snow Hill station, which is on the Thameslink 
route (though not in use - there are office block piles through the 
platforms).

-- 

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

In message , at 14:02:51 on Sat, 23 
Jul 2005, Jock Mackirdy  remarked:

>> At the bottom of the map, the route of the Waterloo and City line, and
>> in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station
>> was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the north
>> of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island next to
>> the entrance to the BT HQ.
>
>Post Office station was part of/adjacent to the Central Telegraph Office
>on the NE corner of Newgate Street and King Edward Street.


The map shows the station on the NW corner.

http://www.loveplums.co.uk/Tube/HolbornViaduct.html
-- 
Roland Perry

In article , Roland Perry 
wrote:

> In message , at 
> 06:33:18 on Sat, 23 Jul 2005, Mizter T  remarked:
> >Roland Perry wrote:
> >> In message <l0i*4wfUq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 21:28:19 on Fri,
> >> 22 Jul 2005, Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
> >> remarked:

> >Most interesting. But what is the line in a tunnel that appears to lead
> >from Holdborn Viaduct Low-level station under Smithfields meat market
> >to Aldersgate (now Barbican) station?
> 
> I don't know its name, but it would seem to be the third side of the 
> triangle there.


The diagram (dated 1903) in Ian Allan "Pre-Grouping Junction Diagrams" (ISBN 
0 7110 1256 3) doesn't give names to the triangle or its junctions. The only 
named junction is West Street Junction, the end-on junction between the SE&C 
and Metropolitan 10 chains south of Farringdon station on the west to south 
side of the triangle.


-- 

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

When I say Holdborn I of course mean Holborn!

What is left of this line, if anything?

And where was Snow Hill station - was it located under Holborn Viaduct
station?

(And yes, I do realise how stupid Holborn Viaduct Low-level station
sounds! I have heard of Snow Hill station, just couldn't quite remember
it's name at the time of writing.)

In article , Roland Perry 
wrote:

> In message , at 14:02:51 on Sat, 23 
> Jul 2005, Jock Mackirdy  remarked:
> >> At the bottom of the map, the route of the Waterloo and City line, and
> >> in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station
> >> was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the north
> >> of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island next to
> >> the entrance to the BT HQ.
> >
> >Post Office station was part of/adjacent to the Central Telegraph Office
> >on the NE corner of Newgate Street and King Edward Street.
> 
> The map shows the station on the NW corner.


Sorry, that's what I meant. I can still see the overgrown ruins boarded up 
and covered in greenery, from the days when 2-12 Gresham Street and Armour 
House were the hub of PO telephony, long before BT Centre was built. 


-- 

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

In article , 
Mizter T wrote:

> When I say Holdborn I of course mean Holborn!
> 
> What is left of this line, if anything?


Not a lot, probably.


> And where was Snow Hill station - was it located under Holborn Viaduct
> station?


No, North of Holborn Viaduct (the road) but before the east-facing 
junction to Smithfield market. The incline ran on the west side of 
Holborn Viaduct station and was used by Thameslink trains before the 
low-level line and City Thameslink station were built. There is a road 
called Snow Hill. The station was underneath the 1960s office buildings 
south of the junction of Snow Hill and Farringdon Street (up to the early 
90's used by BT but probably gone now).
 

> (And yes, I do realise how stupid Holborn Viaduct Low-level station
> sounds! I have heard of Snow Hill station, just couldn't quite remember
> it's name at the time of writing.)


-- 

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

"Mizter T"  wrote

>
> Most interesting. But what is the line in a tunnel that appears to lead
> from Holdborn Viaduct Low-level station under Smithfields meat market
> to Aldersgate (now Barbican) station?
>

This spur was opened in 1871, and the LCDR agreed with the Metropolitan to
run at least 80 trains a day over it into Moorgate Street. These trains
usually ran empty, as the main business district was south of Moorgate
Street, and passengers found it quicker to leave the train at Ludgate Hill
(or Snow Hill) and walk to their offices. These trains were withdrawn from 3
April 1916, after which the spur was abandoned.

Peter

"Mizter T"  wrote

>
> And where was Snow Hill station - was it located under Holborn Viaduct
> station?
>

Yes - opened 1 August 1874, renamed Holborn Viaduct (Low Level) 1 May 1912,
closed 1 June 1916. Apparently until around 1960 it was possible to push on
a unlocked door on the concourse of Holborn Viaduct, descend some dark
steps, and end up on the disused platfroms of teh Low Level station. There
was also an entrance from the north side of Holborn Viaduct (street0.

Peter

Jock Mackirdy wrote:

> In article ,
> Mizter T wrote:
> > When I say Holdborn I of course mean Holborn!
> >
> > What is left of this line, if anything?
>
> Not a lot, probably.


Next time I'm going through the Snow Hill tunnels I'll have a peek,
though I probably won't see anything. As it was all underground I doubt
exploring the surface by foot will bear any fruits.

I'm especially intrigued by the Smithfield GW goods station, which I
presume was under the meat market itself. I've also heard of a rowdy
boozer located in the bowels of the market, patronised by the market
workers, which if it's still open I might try and explore when I'm
feeling brave!


> > And where was Snow Hill station - was it located under Holborn Viaduct
> > station?
>
> No, North of Holborn Viaduct (the road) but before the east-facing
> junction to Smithfield market. The incline ran on the west side of
> Holborn Viaduct station and was used by Thameslink trains before the
> low-level line and City Thameslink station were built. There is a road
> called Snow Hill. The station was underneath the 1960s office buildings
> south of the junction of Snow Hill and Farringdon Street (up to the early
> 90's used by BT but probably gone now).


Ah, now I see it! Snow Hill station is marked on the old map.

In article <FWdKry$a8e4CFAjq@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk>, Roland 
Perry wrote:


> At the bottom of the map, the route of the Waterloo and City line, and 
> in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station 
> was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the north 
> of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island next to 
> the entrance to the BT HQ.


Post Office station was part of/adjacent to the Central Telegraph Office 
on the NE corner of Newgate Street and King Edward Street. Before the 
bomb-damaged building was demolished, the station entrance could still be 
seen. The "Post Office" in question was King Edward Building which 
contains/was on the site of the National Postal Museum. The station 
entrance was moved from the western to the eastern end of the platforms 
and escalators installed in place of lifts. St Pauls is like Chancery 
Lane, with one line on top of the other to fit within the public highway 
above.

-- 

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

In message , at 
06:33:18 on Sat, 23 Jul 2005, Mizter T  remarked:

>Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <l0i*4wfUq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 21:28:19 on Fri,
>> 22 Jul 2005, Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
>> remarked:
>>
>> >http://www.loveplums.co.uk/Tube/HolbornViaduct.html
>>
>> The map at the top of the page shows two other much discussed topics.
>>
>> At the bottom of the map, the route of the Waterloo and City line, and
>> in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station
>> was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the north
>> of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island next to
>> the entrance to the BT HQ.
>
>Most interesting. But what is the line in a tunnel that appears to lead
>from Holdborn Viaduct Low-level station under Smithfields meat market
>to Aldersgate (now Barbican) station?


I don't know its name, but it would seem to be the third side of the 
triangle there.
-- 
Roland Perry

In article , Mizter 
T wrote:

> 
> Most interesting. But what is the line in a tunnel that appears to lead
> from Holdborn Viaduct Low-level station under Smithfields meat market
> to Aldersgate (now Barbican) station?


The access to Smithfield GW goods station, Whitecross Street Midland goods 
station and the Widened Lines to Moorgate. What you refer to as Hol(d)born 
Viaduct Low Level is actually Snow Hill station, which is on the Thameslink 
route (though not in use - there are office block piles through the 
platforms).

-- 

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

In message , at 14:02:51 on Sat, 23 
Jul 2005, Jock Mackirdy  remarked:

>> At the bottom of the map, the route of the Waterloo and City line, and
>> in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station
>> was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the north
>> of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island next to
>> the entrance to the BT HQ.
>
>Post Office station was part of/adjacent to the Central Telegraph Office
>on the NE corner of Newgate Street and King Edward Street.


The map shows the station on the NW corner.

http://www.loveplums.co.uk/Tube/HolbornViaduct.html
-- 
Roland Perry

In article , Roland Perry 
wrote:

> In message , at 
> 06:33:18 on Sat, 23 Jul 2005, Mizter T  remarked:
> >Roland Perry wrote:
> >> In message <l0i*4wfUq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 21:28:19 on Fri,
> >> 22 Jul 2005, Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
> >> remarked:

> >Most interesting. But what is the line in a tunnel that appears to lead
> >from Holdborn Viaduct Low-level station under Smithfields meat market
> >to Aldersgate (now Barbican) station?
> 
> I don't know its name, but it would seem to be the third side of the 
> triangle there.


The diagram (dated 1903) in Ian Allan "Pre-Grouping Junction Diagrams" (ISBN 
0 7110 1256 3) doesn't give names to the triangle or its junctions. The only 
named junction is West Street Junction, the end-on junction between the SE&C 
and Metropolitan 10 chains south of Farringdon station on the west to south 
side of the triangle.


-- 

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

When I say Holdborn I of course mean Holborn!

What is left of this line, if anything?

And where was Snow Hill station - was it located under Holborn Viaduct
station?

(And yes, I do realise how stupid Holborn Viaduct Low-level station
sounds! I have heard of Snow Hill station, just couldn't quite remember
it's name at the time of writing.)

In article , Roland Perry 
wrote:

> In message , at 14:02:51 on Sat, 23 
> Jul 2005, Jock Mackirdy  remarked:
> >> At the bottom of the map, the route of the Waterloo and City line, and
> >> in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station
> >> was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the north
> >> of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island next to
> >> the entrance to the BT HQ.
> >
> >Post Office station was part of/adjacent to the Central Telegraph Office
> >on the NE corner of Newgate Street and King Edward Street.
> 
> The map shows the station on the NW corner.


Sorry, that's what I meant. I can still see the overgrown ruins boarded up 
and covered in greenery, from the days when 2-12 Gresham Street and Armour 
House were the hub of PO telephony, long before BT Centre was built. 


-- 

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

In article , 
Mizter T wrote:

> When I say Holdborn I of course mean Holborn!
> 
> What is left of this line, if anything?


Not a lot, probably.


> And where was Snow Hill station - was it located under Holborn Viaduct
> station?


No, North of Holborn Viaduct (the road) but before the east-facing 
junction to Smithfield market. The incline ran on the west side of 
Holborn Viaduct station and was used by Thameslink trains before the 
low-level line and City Thameslink station were built. There is a road 
called Snow Hill. The station was underneath the 1960s office buildings 
south of the junction of Snow Hill and Farringdon Street (up to the early 
90's used by BT but probably gone now).
 

> (And yes, I do realise how stupid Holborn Viaduct Low-level station
> sounds! I have heard of Snow Hill station, just couldn't quite remember
> it's name at the time of writing.)


-- 

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

"Mizter T"  wrote

>
> Most interesting. But what is the line in a tunnel that appears to lead
> from Holdborn Viaduct Low-level station under Smithfields meat market
> to Aldersgate (now Barbican) station?
>

This spur was opened in 1871, and the LCDR agreed with the Metropolitan to
run at least 80 trains a day over it into Moorgate Street. These trains
usually ran empty, as the main business district was south of Moorgate
Street, and passengers found it quicker to leave the train at Ludgate Hill
(or Snow Hill) and walk to their offices. These trains were withdrawn from 3
April 1916, after which the spur was abandoned.

Peter

"Mizter T"  wrote

>
> And where was Snow Hill station - was it located under Holborn Viaduct
> station?
>

Yes - opened 1 August 1874, renamed Holborn Viaduct (Low Level) 1 May 1912,
closed 1 June 1916. Apparently until around 1960 it was possible to push on
a unlocked door on the concourse of Holborn Viaduct, descend some dark
steps, and end up on the disused platfroms of teh Low Level station. There
was also an entrance from the north side of Holborn Viaduct (street0.

Peter

Jock Mackirdy wrote:

> In article ,
> Mizter T wrote:
> > When I say Holdborn I of course mean Holborn!
> >
> > What is left of this line, if anything?
>
> Not a lot, probably.


Next time I'm going through the Snow Hill tunnels I'll have a peek,
though I probably won't see anything. As it was all underground I doubt
exploring the surface by foot will bear any fruits.

I'm especially intrigued by the Smithfield GW goods station, which I
presume was under the meat market itself. I've also heard of a rowdy
boozer located in the bowels of the market, patronised by the market
workers, which if it's still open I might try and explore when I'm
feeling brave!


> > And where was Snow Hill station - was it located under Holborn Viaduct
> > station?
>
> No, North of Holborn Viaduct (the road) but before the east-facing
> junction to Smithfield market. The incline ran on the west side of
> Holborn Viaduct station and was used by Thameslink trains before the
> low-level line and City Thameslink station were built. There is a road
> called Snow Hill. The station was underneath the 1960s office buildings
> south of the junction of Snow Hill and Farringdon Street (up to the early
> 90's used by BT but probably gone now).


Ah, now I see it! Snow Hill station is marked on the old map.

Peter Masson wrote:

> "Mizter T"  wrote
> >
> > And where was Snow Hill station - was it located under Holborn Viaduct
> > station?
> >
> Yes - opened 1 August 1874, renamed Holborn Viaduct (Low Level) 1 May 1912,
> closed 1 June 1916. Apparently until around 1960 it was possible to push on
> a unlocked door on the concourse of Holborn Viaduct, descend some dark
> steps, and end up on the disused platfroms of teh Low Level station. There
> was also an entrance from the north side of Holborn Viaduct (street0.
>
> Peter


Thanks to both Peter and Jock for your replies.

The seemingly contradictory answers from Peter and from Jock can, I
think, easily be reconciled. The bulk of the Snow Hill station may have
been to the north of Holborn Viaduct (the road) and/or the main surface
level entrance was located there, but there was access from Holborn
Viaduct (high level) station. Or perhaps that access (i.e. the stairway
you speak of) was added later, maybe when Snow Hill was renamed Holborn
Viaduct Low-level.

I though I had read of the existance of a Holborn Viaduct Low-level
station but couldn't remember. The very name sounds slightly ridiculous
- a station name that contains both the phrase *low-level* + *viaduct*
- but then one must remember that the viaduct in question is of course
Holborn Viaduct (the road), not the railway viaduct.

Peter Masson wrote:

> "Mizter T"  wrote
> >
> > Most interesting. But what is the line in a tunnel that appears to lead
> > from Holdborn Viaduct Low-level station under Smithfields meat market
> > to Aldersgate (now Barbican) station?
> >
> This spur was opened in 1871, and the LCDR agreed with the Metropolitan to
> run at least 80 trains a day over it into Moorgate Street. These trains
> usually ran empty, as the main business district was south of Moorgate
> Street, and passengers found it quicker to leave the train at Ludgate Hill
> (or Snow Hill) and walk to their offices. These trains were withdrawn from 3
> April 1916, after which the spur was abandoned.
>
> Peter


Fascinating, thanks for the details. I haven't heard of this spur
mentioned anywhere else, it seems it's largely been forgotten about.

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:32:39 +0100, Charles Ellson
 wrote:


>yyOn Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:58:11 +0000 (UTC), "Ivor Sleeper"
> wrote:
>
>>Wandering across Blackfriars (Road) Bridge the other day after a fruitless 
>>attempt to find the wheelchair entrance to Blackfriars Station, I noticed a 
>>set of bridge piers between Blackfriars road and rail bridges. At the 
>>southern end is a large plaque relating to the London Chatham and Dover 
>>Railway. Does anyone know what happened to this bridge? Not that I think it 
>>was the wheelchair entrance to the station!
>>
>Hit this group via Google. The subject of the bridge piers and their
>previous occupants were explained some time ago but I can't personally
>recall the dates and detauils.


And FYI there is not a wheelchair entrance. (that presumably awaits
the rebuilding for TL 2000.)  Try City Thameslink instead, but not
early or late on Saturday or any time on Sunday or if wheelchair is
arriving on a SE service.
-- 
Peter Lawrence

Peter Masson wrote:

> "Mizter T"  wrote
> >
> > And where was Snow Hill station - was it located under Holborn Viaduct
> > station?
> >
> Yes - opened 1 August 1874, renamed Holborn Viaduct (Low Level) 1 May 1912,
> closed 1 June 1916. Apparently until around 1960 it was possible to push on
> a unlocked door on the concourse of Holborn Viaduct, descend some dark
> steps, and end up on the disused platfroms of teh Low Level station. There
> was also an entrance from the north side of Holborn Viaduct (street0.
>
> Peter


Thanks to both Peter and Jock for your replies.

The seemingly contradictory answers from Peter and from Jock can, I
think, easily be reconciled. The bulk of the Snow Hill station may have
been to the north of Holborn Viaduct (the road) and/or the main surface
level entrance was located there, but there was access from Holborn
Viaduct (high level) station. Or perhaps that access (i.e. the stairway
you speak of) was added later, maybe when Snow Hill was renamed Holborn
Viaduct Low-level.

I though I had read of the existance of a Holborn Viaduct Low-level
station but couldn't remember. The very name sounds slightly ridiculous
- a station name that contains both the phrase *low-level* + *viaduct*
- but then one must remember that the viaduct in question is of course
Holborn Viaduct (the road), not the railway viaduct.

Peter Masson wrote:

> "Mizter T"  wrote
> >
> > Most interesting. But what is the line in a tunnel that appears to lead
> > from Holdborn Viaduct Low-level station under Smithfields meat market
> > to Aldersgate (now Barbican) station?
> >
> This spur was opened in 1871, and the LCDR agreed with the Metropolitan to
> run at least 80 trains a day over it into Moorgate Street. These trains
> usually ran empty, as the main business district was south of Moorgate
> Street, and passengers found it quicker to leave the train at Ludgate Hill
> (or Snow Hill) and walk to their offices. These trains were withdrawn from 3
> April 1916, after which the spur was abandoned.
>
> Peter


Fascinating, thanks for the details. I haven't heard of this spur
mentioned anywhere else, it seems it's largely been forgotten about.

On 23 Jul 2005 07:58:26 -0700, "Mizter T"  wrote:


>Jock Mackirdy wrote:
>> In article ,
>> Mizter T wrote:

>> > What is left of this line, if anything?
>>
>> Not a lot, probably.
>
>Next time I'm going through the Snow Hill tunnels I'll have a peek,
>though I probably won't see anything.


There are some remains of the platforms planted with pillars
supporting the oiffices above.


> As it was all underground I doubt
>exploring the surface by foot will.....

Correct!

>I'm especially intrigued by the Smithfield GW goods station, which I
>presume was under the meat market itself.


It is now an underground car park; its approach ramp from West
Smithfield is that built for the goods station.


> I've also heard of a rowdy
>boozer located in the bowels of the market, patronised by the market
>workers, which if it's still open I might try and explore when I'm
>feeling brave!


Dunno about that - I have never dared to explore the car park or had
need to use it.

-- 
Peter Lawrence

On 23 Jul 2005 07:58:26 -0700, "Mizter T"  wrote:


>Jock Mackirdy wrote:
>> In article ,
>> Mizter T wrote:

>> > What is left of this line, if anything?
>>
>> Not a lot, probably.
>
>Next time I'm going through the Snow Hill tunnels I'll have a peek,
>though I probably won't see anything.


There are some remains of the platforms planted with pillars
supporting the oiffices above.


> As it was all underground I doubt
>exploring the surface by foot will.....

Correct!

>I'm especially intrigued by the Smithfield GW goods station, which I
>presume was under the meat market itself.


It is now an underground car park; its approach ramp from West
Smithfield is that built for the goods station.


> I've also heard of a rowdy
>boozer located in the bowels of the market, patronised by the market
>workers, which if it's still open I might try and explore when I'm
>feeling brave!


Dunno about that - I have never dared to explore the car park or had
need to use it.

-- 
Peter Lawrence

Mizter T wrote:

> Peter Masson wrote:
> > "Mizter T"  wrote
> > >
> > > And where was Snow Hill station - was it located under Holborn Viaduct
> > > station?
> > >
> > Yes - opened 1 August 1874, renamed Holborn Viaduct (Low Level) 1 May 1912,
> > closed 1 June 1916. Apparently until around 1960 it was possible to push on
> > a unlocked door on the concourse of Holborn Viaduct, descend some dark
> > steps, and end up on the disused platfroms of teh Low Level station. There
> > was also an entrance from the north side of Holborn Viaduct (street0.
> >
> > Peter
>
> Thanks to both Peter and Jock for your replies.
>
> The seemingly contradictory answers from Peter and from Jock can, I
> think, easily be reconciled. The bulk of the Snow Hill station may have
> been to the north of Holborn Viaduct (the road) and/or the main surface
> level entrance was located there, but there was access from Holborn
> Viaduct (high level) station. Or perhaps that access (i.e. the stairway
> you speak of) was added later, maybe when Snow Hill was renamed Holborn
> Viaduct Low-level.
>
> I though I had read of the existance of a Holborn Viaduct Low-level
> station but couldn't remember. The very name sounds slightly ridiculous
> - a station name that contains both the phrase *low-level* + *viaduct*
> - but then one must remember that the viaduct in question is of course
> Holborn Viaduct (the road), not the railway viaduct.



Was any of it really underground, as opposed to under/between
buildings, or between buildings and the Fleet river cutting?

Going from Blackfriars to City Thameslink now, it doesn't seem to me
that the trackbed goes as far down as the adjacent Farringdon Road,
although it's difficult do judge.  That is, is the "underground"
station actually higher than ground level, depending on which road you
take the ground to be level with?

Mizter T wrote:

> Peter Masson wrote:
> > "Mizter T"  wrote
> > >
> > > And where was Snow Hill station - was it located under Holborn Viaduct
> > > station?
> > >
> > Yes - opened 1 August 1874, renamed Holborn Viaduct (Low Level) 1 May 1912,
> > closed 1 June 1916. Apparently until around 1960 it was possible to push on
> > a unlocked door on the concourse of Holborn Viaduct, descend some dark
> > steps, and end up on the disused platfroms of teh Low Level station. There
> > was also an entrance from the north side of Holborn Viaduct (street0.
> >
> > Peter
>
> Thanks to both Peter and Jock for your replies.
>
> The seemingly contradictory answers from Peter and from Jock can, I
> think, easily be reconciled. The bulk of the Snow Hill station may have
> been to the north of Holborn Viaduct (the road) and/or the main surface
> level entrance was located there, but there was access from Holborn
> Viaduct (high level) station. Or perhaps that access (i.e. the stairway
> you speak of) was added later, maybe when Snow Hill was renamed Holborn
> Viaduct Low-level.
>
> I though I had read of the existance of a Holborn Viaduct Low-level
> station but couldn't remember. The very name sounds slightly ridiculous
> - a station name that contains both the phrase *low-level* + *viaduct*
> - but then one must remember that the viaduct in question is of course
> Holborn Viaduct (the road), not the railway viaduct.



Was any of it really underground, as opposed to under/between
buildings, or between buildings and the Fleet river cutting?

Going from Blackfriars to City Thameslink now, it doesn't seem to me
that the trackbed goes as far down as the adjacent Farringdon Road,
although it's difficult do judge.  That is, is the "underground"
station actually higher than ground level, depending on which road you
take the ground to be level with?

In article , Mig wrote:

> Mizter T wrote:
 
> Was any of it really underground, as opposed to under/between
> buildings, or between buildings and the Fleet river cutting?


It all depends what you mean by underground and what you take as the original 
ground level. Going from Farringdon southwards you are clearly at or just below 
basement level, but then so is much of the cut and cover Underground network. It 
was Cardinal House whose supporting piers pierced the Snow Hill platforms. The 
line then rose steeply to join the high level Holborn Viaduct route and cross 
Ludgate Hill on the bridge which was subsequently removed. When BR ran a DC test 
train from the Blackfriars direction into Farringdon, about 9 months before the 
launch of Thameslink, I was able to catch glimpses of it between the buildings.


> Going from Blackfriars to City Thameslink now, it doesn't seem to me
> that the trackbed goes as far down as the adjacent Farringdon Road,
> although it's difficult do judge.  That is, is the "underground"
> station actually higher than ground level, depending on which road you
> take the ground to be level with?


Bearing in mind that the lid of the City Thameslink tunnel has buildings sitting 
on it (and ISTR seeing the lid was below the level of Farringdon Road), I think 
the line is virtually level from Farringdon to the start of the "new" incline and 
the relocated bridge over Queen Victoria Street. Modern street levels are no real 
guide, since Farringdon Road sits on top of the Fleet River and the area around 
Smithfield Market has been heavily modified over time.

-- 

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

In article , Mig wrote:

> Mizter T wrote:
 
> Was any of it really underground, as opposed to under/between
> buildings, or between buildings and the Fleet river cutting?


It all depends what you mean by underground and what you take as the original 
ground level. Going from Farringdon southwards you are clearly at or just below 
basement level, but then so is much of the cut and cover Underground network. It 
was Cardinal House whose supporting piers pierced the Snow Hill platforms. The 
line then rose steeply to join the high level Holborn Viaduct route and cross 
Ludgate Hill on the bridge which was subsequently removed. When BR ran a DC test 
train from the Blackfriars direction into Farringdon, about 9 months before the 
launch of Thameslink, I was able to catch glimpses of it between the buildings.


> Going from Blackfriars to City Thameslink now, it doesn't seem to me
> that the trackbed goes as far down as the adjacent Farringdon Road,
> although it's difficult do judge.  That is, is the "underground"
> station actually higher than ground level, depending on which road you
> take the ground to be level with?


Bearing in mind that the lid of the City Thameslink tunnel has buildings sitting 
on it (and ISTR seeing the lid was below the level of Farringdon Road), I think 
the line is virtually level from Farringdon to the start of the "new" incline and 
the relocated bridge over Queen Victoria Street. Modern street levels are no real 
guide, since Farringdon Road sits on top of the Fleet River and the area around 
Smithfield Market has been heavily modified over time.

-- 

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

In message , at 21:49:40 on Sat, 23 
Jul 2005, Jock Mackirdy  remarked:

>Bearing in mind that the lid of the City Thameslink tunnel has buildings sitting
>on it (and ISTR seeing the lid was below the level of Farringdon Road), I think
>the line is virtually level from Farringdon to the start of the "new" incline and
>the relocated bridge over Queen Victoria Street.


Isn't there a slight incline northbound out of City Thameslink?


>Modern street levels are no real guide, since Farringdon Road sits on 
>top of the Fleet River and the area around Smithfield Market has been 
>heavily modified over time.


On the other hand, I'd be surprised if Fleet St has changed level much, 
and that continues across Ludgate Circus to Ludgate Hill. Today the line 
goes under Ludgate Hill (City Thameslink Station is underneath and 
accessed by escalators). Previously, the line went over Ludgate Hill, of 
course.
-- 
Roland Perry

In message , at 21:49:40 on Sat, 23 
Jul 2005, Jock Mackirdy  remarked:

>Bearing in mind that the lid of the City Thameslink tunnel has buildings sitting
>on it (and ISTR seeing the lid was below the level of Farringdon Road), I think
>the line is virtually level from Farringdon to the start of the "new" incline and
>the relocated bridge over Queen Victoria Street.


Isn't there a slight incline northbound out of City Thameslink?


>Modern street levels are no real guide, since Farringdon Road sits on 
>top of the Fleet River and the area around Smithfield Market has been 
>heavily modified over time.


On the other hand, I'd be surprised if Fleet St has changed level much, 
and that continues across Ludgate Circus to Ludgate Hill. Today the line 
goes under Ludgate Hill (City Thameslink Station is underneath and 
accessed by escalators). Previously, the line went over Ludgate Hill, of 
course.
-- 
Roland Perry

On 23 Jul 2005 07:58:26 -0700, "Mizter T"  wrote:



>I'm especially intrigued by the Smithfield GW goods station, which I
>presume was under the meat market itself. I've also heard of a rowdy
>boozer located in the bowels of the market, patronised by the market
>workers, which if it's still open I might try and explore when I'm
>feeling brave!
>


Doesnt do a great breakfast, the one at the Fox and Anchor is better. 



greg
-- 
"Access to a waiting list is not access to health care"

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:22:06 GMT, "Peter Lawrence"
 wrote:



>
>>I'm especially intrigued by the Smithfield GW goods station, which I
>>presume was under the meat market itself.
>
>It is now an underground car park; its approach ramp from West
>Smithfield is that built for the goods station.
>
>> I've also heard of a rowdy
>>boozer located in the bowels of the market, patronised by the market
>>workers, which if it's still open I might try and explore when I'm
>>feeling brave!
>
>Dunno about that - I have never dared to explore the car park or had
>need to use it.


It's a fairly innocuous well lit place usually attended by one guy in
the kiosk. I've never been challenged even going backwards and
forwards to the car repeatedly whilst servicing in nearby St. Bart's
Hospital.  

There's a pedestrian entrance in the wall a few paces down the ramp
which opens onto a footbridge which nowadays only spans a couple of
rows of parked cars. AFAICS that's all that remains of it's railway
origins, save that trains can still be heard through the walls.

DG

On 23 Jul 2005 07:58:26 -0700, "Mizter T"  wrote:



>I'm especially intrigued by the Smithfield GW goods station, which I
>presume was under the meat market itself. I've also heard of a rowdy
>boozer located in the bowels of the market, patronised by the market
>workers, which if it's still open I might try and explore when I'm
>feeling brave!
>


Doesnt do a great breakfast, the one at the Fox and Anchor is better. 



greg
-- 
"Access to a waiting list is not access to health care"

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:22:06 GMT, "Peter Lawrence"
 wrote:



>
>>I'm especially intrigued by the Smithfield GW goods station, which I
>>presume was under the meat market itself.
>
>It is now an underground car park; its approach ramp from West
>Smithfield is that built for the goods station.
>
>> I've also heard of a rowdy
>>boozer located in the bowels of the market, patronised by the market
>>workers, which if it's still open I might try and explore when I'm
>>feeling brave!
>
>Dunno about that - I have never dared to explore the car park or had
>need to use it.


It's a fairly innocuous well lit place usually attended by one guy in
the kiosk. I've never been challenged even going backwards and
forwards to the car repeatedly whilst servicing in nearby St. Bart's
Hospital.  

There's a pedestrian entrance in the wall a few paces down the ramp
which opens onto a footbridge which nowadays only spans a couple of
rows of parked cars. AFAICS that's all that remains of it's railway
origins, save that trains can still be heard through the walls.

DG

In article , Jock Mackirdy 
 writes

>I think
>the line is virtually level from Farringdon to the start of the "new" 
>incline and
>the relocated bridge over Queen Victoria Street.


It's always felt distinctly downhill from the Snow Hill sidings to the 
south end of City Thameslink station.

However, we've got drivers on that route reading this group; perhaps 
they can comment.

-- 
Clive D.W. Feather                       | Home: 
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work)             | Web:  <http://www.davros.org>
Fax: +44 870 051 9937                    | Work: 
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In article <FWdKry$a8e4CFAjq@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk>, Roland 
Perry  writes

>in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station 
>was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the north 
>of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island next to 
>the entrance to the BT HQ.


Isn't it now the "Dental Centre" just beside the church?

-- 
Clive D.W. Feather                       | Home: 
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work)             | Web:  <http://www.davros.org>
Fax: +44 870 051 9937                    | Work: 
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In article , Jock Mackirdy 
 writes

>I think
>the line is virtually level from Farringdon to the start of the "new" 
>incline and
>the relocated bridge over Queen Victoria Street.


It's always felt distinctly downhill from the Snow Hill sidings to the 
south end of City Thameslink station.

However, we've got drivers on that route reading this group; perhaps 
they can comment.

-- 
Clive D.W. Feather                       | Home: 
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work)             | Web:  <http://www.davros.org>
Fax: +44 870 051 9937                    | Work: 
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In article <FWdKry$a8e4CFAjq@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk>, Roland 
Perry  writes

>in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station 
>was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the north 
>of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island next to 
>the entrance to the BT HQ.


Isn't it now the "Dental Centre" just beside the church?

-- 
Clive D.W. Feather                       | Home: 
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work)             | Web:  <http://www.davros.org>
Fax: +44 870 051 9937                    | Work: 
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In message , at 08:45:39 on Mon, 25
Jul 2005, Clive D. W. Feather  remarked:

>>in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station
>>was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the
>>north of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island
>>next to the entrance to the BT HQ.
>
>Isn't it now the "Dental Centre" just beside the church?


I'm going by aerial photos that show a much enlarged road junction, with
a large triangular traffic island to the west. (View from north).

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/postoffice.jpg

If the old map is accurate, and the station building was next to the
original alignment of Newgate Street, then the station would surely be
under the traffic island, or the road between the island and the church.
-- 
Roland Perry

In message , at 08:45:39 on Mon, 25
Jul 2005, Clive D. W. Feather  remarked:

>>in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station
>>was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the
>>north of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island
>>next to the entrance to the BT HQ.
>
>Isn't it now the "Dental Centre" just beside the church?


I'm going by aerial photos that show a much enlarged road junction, with
a large triangular traffic island to the west. (View from north).

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/postoffice.jpg

If the old map is accurate, and the station building was next to the
original alignment of Newgate Street, then the station would surely be
under the traffic island, or the road between the island and the church.
-- 
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

> In message , at 08:45:39 on Mon,
> 25 Jul 2005, Clive D. W. Feather 
> remarked:
>>> in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's
>>> station was originally named. The station building itself is shown
>>> to the north of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a
>>> traffic island next to the entrance to the BT HQ.
>>
>> Isn't it now the "Dental Centre" just beside the church?
>
> I'm going by aerial photos that show a much enlarged road junction,
> with a large triangular traffic island to the west. (View from north).
>
> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/postoffice.jpg
>
> If the old map is accurate, and the station building was next to the
> original alignment of Newgate Street, then the station would surely be
> under the traffic island, or the road between the island and the
> church.


In London's Secret Tubes, Andrew Emmerson & Tony Beard published by Capital
Transport Publishing Post Office Station is referred to on page 104 in
reference to the late 30's rebuilding.

<start quote>
Two years later a new entrance was created.........
The old booking hall and lifts at a point several hundered yards west on the
corner of Newgate St and King Edward St were closed.....
<end quote>
There are a couple of pictures of the bomb damaged station building and a
reference to Oct 1999 London Railway Record (No.21) which confirms the
location as at the junction and has a few pictures of the building.


-- 
Cheers for now,

John from Harrow, Middx

remove spamnocars to reply

Roland Perry wrote:

> In message , at 08:45:39 on Mon,
> 25 Jul 2005, Clive D. W. Feather 
> remarked:
>>> in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's
>>> station was originally named. The station building itself is shown
>>> to the north of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a
>>> traffic island next to the entrance to the BT HQ.
>>
>> Isn't it now the "Dental Centre" just beside the church?
>
> I'm going by aerial photos that show a much enlarged road junction,
> with a large triangular traffic island to the west. (View from north).
>
> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/postoffice.jpg
>
> If the old map is accurate, and the station building was next to the
> original alignment of Newgate Street, then the station would surely be
> under the traffic island, or the road between the island and the
> church.


In London's Secret Tubes, Andrew Emmerson & Tony Beard published by Capital
Transport Publishing Post Office Station is referred to on page 104 in
reference to the late 30's rebuilding.

<start quote>
Two years later a new entrance was created.........
The old booking hall and lifts at a point several hundered yards west on the
corner of Newgate St and King Edward St were closed.....
<end quote>
There are a couple of pictures of the bomb damaged station building and a
reference to Oct 1999 London Railway Record (No.21) which confirms the
location as at the junction and has a few pictures of the building.


-- 
Cheers for now,

John from Harrow, Middx

remove spamnocars to reply

In article <9x4Fe.13410$Fx3.3691@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>, John Shelley wrote:

> Roland Perry wrote:
> > In message , at 08:45:39 on Mon,
> > 25 Jul 2005, Clive D. W. Feather 
> > remarked:
> >>> in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's
> >>> station was originally named. The station building itself is shown
> >>> to the north of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a
> >>> traffic island next to the entrance to the BT HQ.
> >>
> >> Isn't it now the "Dental Centre" just beside the church?
> >
> > I'm going by aerial photos that show a much enlarged road junction,
> > with a large triangular traffic island to the west. (View from north).
> >
> > http://www.perry.co.uk/images/postoffice.jpg
> >
> > If the old map is accurate, and the station building was next to the
> > original alignment of Newgate Street, then the station would surely be
> > under the traffic island, or the road between the island and the
> > church.
> 
> In London's Secret Tubes, Andrew Emmerson & Tony Beard published by Capital
> Transport Publishing Post Office Station is referred to on page 104 in
> reference to the late 30's rebuilding.
> 
> <start quote>
> Two years later a new entrance was created.........
> The old booking hall and lifts at a point several hundered yards west on the
> corner of Newgate St and King Edward St were closed.....
> <end quote>
> There are a couple of pictures of the bomb damaged station building and a
> reference to Oct 1999 London Railway Record (No.21) which confirms the
> location as at the junction and has a few pictures of the building.


"Rails Through the Clay" mentions the deep shelters, for which the old station 
entrance may have provided access, but says the one at St Pauls was abandoned 
part-built because of fears for the foundations of the cathedral. The deep 
shelter at Chancery Lane was built. It became the GPO's Kingsway Trunk 
Exchange, using the original station entrance. 

-- 

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

In article <9x4Fe.13410$Fx3.3691@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>, John Shelley wrote:

> Roland Perry wrote:
> > In message , at 08:45:39 on Mon,
> > 25 Jul 2005, Clive D. W. Feather 
> > remarked:
> >>> in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's
> >>> station was originally named. The station building itself is shown
> >>> to the north of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a
> >>> traffic island next to the entrance to the BT HQ.
> >>
> >> Isn't it now the "Dental Centre" just beside the church?
> >
> > I'm going by aerial photos that show a much enlarged road junction,
> > with a large triangular traffic island to the west. (View from north).
> >
> > http://www.perry.co.uk/images/postoffice.jpg
> >
> > If the old map is accurate, and the station building was next to the
> > original alignment of Newgate Street, then the station would surely be
> > under the traffic island, or the road between the island and the
> > church.
> 
> In London's Secret Tubes, Andrew Emmerson & Tony Beard published by Capital
> Transport Publishing Post Office Station is referred to on page 104 in
> reference to the late 30's rebuilding.
> 
> <start quote>
> Two years later a new entrance was created.........
> The old booking hall and lifts at a point several hundered yards west on the
> corner of Newgate St and King Edward St were closed.....
> <end quote>
> There are a couple of pictures of the bomb damaged station building and a
> reference to Oct 1999 London Railway Record (No.21) which confirms the
> location as at the junction and has a few pictures of the building.


"Rails Through the Clay" mentions the deep shelters, for which the old station 
entrance may have provided access, but says the one at St Pauls was abandoned 
part-built because of fears for the foundations of the cathedral. The deep 
shelter at Chancery Lane was built. It became the GPO's Kingsway Trunk 
Exchange, using the original station entrance. 

-- 

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

"Jock Mackirdy"  wrote in message
news:VA.00000205.002e0d86@ntlworld.com...

> In article , Mizter
> T wrote:
> >
> > Most interesting. But what is the line in a tunnel that appears to lead
> > from Holdborn Viaduct Low-level station under Smithfields meat market
> > to Aldersgate (now Barbican) station?
>
> The access to Smithfield GW goods station, Whitecross Street Midland goods
> station and the Widened Lines to Moorgate.


If you can lay hands on a copy of 'Lost Lines around London 4' made by
Online Video, it includes interesting footage of the Smithfield Market in
use and the way it looked in 1997.
http://www.transportdiversions.com/publicationshow.asp?pubid=5152

HTH,
Nick

"Jock Mackirdy"  wrote in message
news:VA.00000205.002e0d86@ntlworld.com...

> In article , Mizter
> T wrote:
> >
> > Most interesting. But what is the line in a tunnel that appears to lead
> > from Holdborn Viaduct Low-level station under Smithfields meat market
> > to Aldersgate (now Barbican) station?
>
> The access to Smithfield GW goods station, Whitecross Street Midland goods
> station and the Widened Lines to Moorgate.


If you can lay hands on a copy of 'Lost Lines around London 4' made by
Online Video, it includes interesting footage of the Smithfield Market in
use and the way it looked in 1997.
http://www.transportdiversions.com/publicationshow.asp?pubid=5152

HTH,
Nick

In message , Clive D. W. Feather 
 writes

>In article <FWdKry$a8e4CFAjq@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk>, Roland 
>Perry  writes
>>in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station 
>>was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the 
>>north of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island 
>>next to the entrance to the BT HQ.
>
>Isn't it now the "Dental Centre" just beside the church?


Yes (although other things occupy it as well).
-- 
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message , Clive D. W. Feather 
 writes

>In article <FWdKry$a8e4CFAjq@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk>, Roland 
>Perry  writes
>>in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station 
>>was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the 
>>north of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island 
>>next to the entrance to the BT HQ.
>
>Isn't it now the "Dental Centre" just beside the church?


Yes (although other things occupy it as well).
-- 
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

"It's always felt distinctly downhill from the Snow Hill sidings to the

south end of City Thameslink station.

However, we've got drivers on that route reading this group; perhaps
they can comment."

The overall gradient from Farringdon to the bottom of the bank to
Blackfriars is probably about level, but with some lumps and bumps...


>From Farringdon, there's a bit of a dip and then a hump around the exit

from Smithfield Sidings. This falls down, as you can feel, into the
start of City Thameslink platform.

There is then a more gradual hump through the length of the station,
dipping down again just at the bottom of the bank before rising
sharply. This is from memory, I think its about right!

"It's always felt distinctly downhill from the Snow Hill sidings to the

south end of City Thameslink station.

However, we've got drivers on that route reading this group; perhaps
they can comment."

The overall gradient from Farringdon to the bottom of the bank to
Blackfriars is probably about level, but with some lumps and bumps...


>From Farringdon, there's a bit of a dip and then a hump around the exit

from Smithfield Sidings. This falls down, as you can feel, into the
start of City Thameslink platform.

There is then a more gradual hump through the length of the station,
dipping down again just at the bottom of the bank before rising
sharply. This is from memory, I think its about right!

In article <+uoE1$OIUK5CFAuP@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk>, Roland 
Perry  writes

>>>in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station
>>>was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the
>>>north of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island
>>>next to the entrance to the BT HQ.
>>Isn't it now the "Dental Centre" just beside the church?

>If the old map is accurate, and the station building was next to the
>original alignment of Newgate Street, then the station would surely be
>under the traffic island, or the road between the island and the church.


Annoyingly, I'm not going to be visiting that BT office for a few weeks, 
but I'll keep my eyes open when I do.

In the meanwhile, let me point at
<http://www.davros.org/rail/lobo/cards/postoffice.html>

-- 
Clive D.W. Feather                       | Home: 
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work)             | Web:  <http://www.davros.org>
Fax: +44 870 051 9937                    | Work: 
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In article <+uoE1$OIUK5CFAuP@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk>, Roland 
Perry  writes

>>>in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station
>>>was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the
>>>north of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island
>>>next to the entrance to the BT HQ.
>>Isn't it now the "Dental Centre" just beside the church?

>If the old map is accurate, and the station building was next to the
>original alignment of Newgate Street, then the station would surely be
>under the traffic island, or the road between the island and the church.


Annoyingly, I'm not going to be visiting that BT office for a few weeks, 
but I'll keep my eyes open when I do.

In the meanwhile, let me point at
<http://www.davros.org/rail/lobo/cards/postoffice.html>

-- 
Clive D.W. Feather                       | Home: 
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work)             | Web:  <http://www.davros.org>
Fax: +44 870 051 9937                    | Work: 
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In message , at 06:42:03 on Thu, 4 
Aug 2005, Clive D. W. Feather  remarked:

>In the meanwhile, let me point at
><http://www.davros.org/rail/lobo/cards/postoffice.html>


That's the old Post Office, not the station though.
-- 
Roland Perry

In message , at 06:42:03 on Thu, 4 
Aug 2005, Clive D. W. Feather  remarked:

>In the meanwhile, let me point at
><http://www.davros.org/rail/lobo/cards/postoffice.html>


That's the old Post Office, not the station though.
-- 
Roland Perry

"Clive D. W. Feather"  wrote in message 
news:wCAYun8rqa8CFw0r@romana.davros.org...

> Annoyingly, I'm not going to be visiting that BT office for a few weeks, 
> but I'll keep my eyes open when I do.


The site of the old station is not hard to spot - there's a massive 
fan-tower in the middle of the road system which sits atop the old lift 
shafts.

"Clive D. W. Feather"  wrote in message 
news:wCAYun8rqa8CFw0r@romana.davros.org...

> Annoyingly, I'm not going to be visiting that BT office for a few weeks, 
> but I'll keep my eyes open when I do.


The site of the old station is not hard to spot - there's a massive 
fan-tower in the middle of the road system which sits atop the old lift 
shafts.

In message <dct61s$n0d$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, at 14:43:24 on Thu, 4 Aug 
2005, David Splett  remarked:

>The site of the old station is not hard to spot - there's a massive
>fan-tower in the middle of the road system which sits atop the old lift
>shafts.


It's the old station building that we've been concentrating on. Is that 
still in existence, and if so, what does it look like now?
-- 
Roland Perry

In message <dct61s$n0d$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, at 14:43:24 on Thu, 4 Aug 
2005, David Splett  remarked:

>The site of the old station is not hard to spot - there's a massive
>fan-tower in the middle of the road system which sits atop the old lift
>shafts.


It's the old station building that we've been concentrating on. Is that 
still in existence, and if so, what does it look like now?
-- 
Roland Perry

Are you talking about Snow Hill Tunnel!!  There was a St Pauls stop in it 
before they built City Thameslink!!

Steve Cooper


"Clive D. W. Feather"  wrote in message 
news:wCAYun8rqa8CFw0r@romana.davros.org...

> In article <+uoE1$OIUK5CFAuP@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk>, Roland 
> Perry  writes
>>>>in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station
>>>>was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the
>>>>north of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island
>>>>next to the entrance to the BT HQ.
>>>Isn't it now the "Dental Centre" just beside the church?
>
>>If the old map is accurate, and the station building was next to the
>>original alignment of Newgate Street, then the station would surely be
>>under the traffic island, or the road between the island and the church.
>
> Annoyingly, I'm not going to be visiting that BT office for a few weeks, 
> but I'll keep my eyes open when I do.
>
> In the meanwhile, let me point at
> <http://www.davros.org/rail/lobo/cards/postoffice.html>
>
> -- 
> Clive D.W. Feather                       | Home: 
> Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work)             | Web:  <http://www.davros.org>
> Fax: +44 870 051 9937                    | Work: 
> Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:   

"Steve Cooper"  wrote in message
news:xGrIe.30270$Ag3.17552@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...

> Are you talking about Snow Hill Tunnel!!  There was a St Pauls stop in it
> before they built City Thameslink!!
>

The discussion has been about St Pauls station on LUL Central Line, which
used to have a different surface building and the name Post Office. The
original station on the Snow Hill tunnel was originally named Snow Hill, and
was later renamed Holborn Viaduct Low Level.
The LCDR St Pauls station was renamed Blackfriars many years ago.

Peter

Are you talking about Snow Hill Tunnel!!  There was a St Pauls stop in it 
before they built City Thameslink!!

Steve Cooper


"Clive D. W. Feather"  wrote in message 
news:wCAYun8rqa8CFw0r@romana.davros.org...

> In article <+uoE1$OIUK5CFAuP@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk>, Roland 
> Perry  writes
>>>>in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station
>>>>was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the
>>>>north of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island
>>>>next to the entrance to the BT HQ.
>>>Isn't it now the "Dental Centre" just beside the church?
>
>>If the old map is accurate, and the station building was next to the
>>original alignment of Newgate Street, then the station would surely be
>>under the traffic island, or the road between the island and the church.
>
> Annoyingly, I'm not going to be visiting that BT office for a few weeks, 
> but I'll keep my eyes open when I do.
>
> In the meanwhile, let me point at
> <http://www.davros.org/rail/lobo/cards/postoffice.html>
>
> -- 
> Clive D.W. Feather                       | Home: 
> Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work)             | Web:  <http://www.davros.org>
> Fax: +44 870 051 9937                    | Work: 
> Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:   

"Steve Cooper"  wrote in message
news:xGrIe.30270$Ag3.17552@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...

> Are you talking about Snow Hill Tunnel!!  There was a St Pauls stop in it
> before they built City Thameslink!!
>

The discussion has been about St Pauls station on LUL Central Line, which
used to have a different surface building and the name Post Office. The
original station on the Snow Hill tunnel was originally named Snow Hill, and
was later renamed Holborn Viaduct Low Level.
The LCDR St Pauls station was renamed Blackfriars many years ago.

Peter

Peter Masson wrote:

> "Steve Cooper"  wrote in message
> news:xGrIe.30270$Ag3.17552@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> > Are you talking about Snow Hill Tunnel!!  There was a St Pauls stop in it
> > before they built City Thameslink!!
> >
> The discussion has been about St Pauls station on LUL Central Line, which
> used to have a different surface building and the name Post Office. The
> original station on the Snow Hill tunnel was originally named Snow Hill, and
> was later renamed Holborn Viaduct Low Level.
> The LCDR St Pauls station was renamed Blackfriars many years ago.
>
> Peter




City Thameslink was called St Pauls Thameslink at first, wasn't it?

"MIG"  wrote

>
> City Thameslink was called St Pauls Thameslink at first, wasn't it?
>

It was, but not for very long. It must have opened around 1990-91 (someone
will know the exact date), but was certainly City Thameslink by 1993.

Peter

Peter Masson wrote:

> "Steve Cooper"  wrote in message
> news:xGrIe.30270$Ag3.17552@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> > Are you talking about Snow Hill Tunnel!!  There was a St Pauls stop in it
> > before they built City Thameslink!!
> >
> The discussion has been about St Pauls station on LUL Central Line, which
> used to have a different surface building and the name Post Office. The
> original station on the Snow Hill tunnel was originally named Snow Hill, and
> was later renamed Holborn Viaduct Low Level.
> The LCDR St Pauls station was renamed Blackfriars many years ago.
>
> Peter




City Thameslink was called St Pauls Thameslink at first, wasn't it?

"MIG"  wrote

>
> City Thameslink was called St Pauls Thameslink at first, wasn't it?
>

It was, but not for very long. It must have opened around 1990-91 (someone
will know the exact date), but was certainly City Thameslink by 1993.

Peter

In article , Roland Perry 
wrote:

> In message <dct61s$n0d$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, at 14:43:24 on Thu, 4 Aug 
> 2005, David Splett  remarked:
> >The site of the old station is not hard to spot - there's a massive
> >fan-tower in the middle of the road system which sits atop the old lift
> >shafts.
> 
> It's the old station building that we've been concentrating on. Is that 
> still in existence, and if so, what does it look like now?


The station building was in a corner of the GPO's Central Telegraph Office, 
which was bomb-damaged in WWII and semi-derelict when I last saw it in the 
late 1960s. The vent shafts were obviously a later replacement when the 
building was demolished and the road layout changed.

-- 

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

In article , Roland Perry 
wrote:

> In message <dct61s$n0d$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, at 14:43:24 on Thu, 4 Aug 
> 2005, David Splett  remarked:
> >The site of the old station is not hard to spot - there's a massive
> >fan-tower in the middle of the road system which sits atop the old lift
> >shafts.
> 
> It's the old station building that we've been concentrating on. Is that 
> still in existence, and if so, what does it look like now?


The station building was in a corner of the GPO's Central Telegraph Office, 
which was bomb-damaged in WWII and semi-derelict when I last saw it in the 
late 1960s. The vent shafts were obviously a later replacement when the 
building was demolished and the road layout changed.

-- 

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

In message , at 09:27:32 on Sat, 6 
Aug 2005, Jock Mackirdy  remarked:

>> >The site of the old station is not hard to spot - there's a massive
>> >fan-tower in the middle of the road system which sits atop the old lift
>> >shafts.
>>
>> It's the old station building that we've been concentrating on. Is that
>> still in existence, and if so, what does it look like now?
>
>The station building was in a corner of the GPO's Central Telegraph Office,
>which was bomb-damaged in WWII and semi-derelict when I last saw it in the
>late 1960s. The vent shafts were obviously a later replacement when the
>building was demolished and the road layout changed.


Thanks. Clive thinks the building is still there, next to the church. I 
suspect I may divert and have a look for myself next time I'm in town.

(One of the reasons it's interesting, apart from the tube, is that 
distances "from London" were measured from here - rather than Charing 
Cross as many people think. And it's almost - but not quite, according 
to my current map - the southern end of the A1.)
-- 
Roland Perry

In message , at 09:27:32 on Sat, 6 
Aug 2005, Jock Mackirdy  remarked:

>> >The site of the old station is not hard to spot - there's a massive
>> >fan-tower in the middle of the road system which sits atop the old lift
>> >shafts.
>>
>> It's the old station building that we've been concentrating on. Is that
>> still in existence, and if so, what does it look like now?
>
>The station building was in a corner of the GPO's Central Telegraph Office,
>which was bomb-damaged in WWII and semi-derelict when I last saw it in the
>late 1960s. The vent shafts were obviously a later replacement when the
>building was demolished and the road layout changed.


Thanks. Clive thinks the building is still there, next to the church. I 
suspect I may divert and have a look for myself next time I'm in town.

(One of the reasons it's interesting, apart from the tube, is that 
distances "from London" were measured from here - rather than Charing 
Cross as many people think. And it's almost - but not quite, according 
to my current map - the southern end of the A1.)
-- 
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

> In message , at 09:27:32 on Sat, 6
> Aug 2005, Jock Mackirdy  remarked:
> >The station building was in a corner of the GPO's Central Telegraph Office,
> >which was bomb-damaged in WWII and semi-derelict when I last saw it in the
> >late 1960s. The vent shafts were obviously a later replacement when the
> >building was demolished and the road layout changed.
>
> Thanks. Clive thinks the building is still there, next to the church. I
> suspect I may divert and have a look for myself next time I'm in town.
>
> (One of the reasons it's interesting, apart from the tube, is that
> distances "from London" were measured from here - rather than Charing
> Cross as many people think.


I think you are mistaken:

http://rodcorp.typepad.com/photos/variousthings/centrelondon_mileage.jpg

Dave

In message , at 
12:09:40 on Sun, 7 Aug 2005, Dave Liney  remarked:

>> (One of the reasons it's interesting, apart from the tube, is that
>> distances "from London" were measured from here - rather than Charing
>> Cross as many people think.
>
>I think you are mistaken:
>
>http://rodcorp.typepad.com/photos/variousthings/centrelondon_mileage.jpg


The first people who needed to know distances from London were the Post 
Office, because they charged by distance (before the penny post).

There may have come a time when road distances were measured from 
Charing Cross instead, but I have several maps from the early days of 
motoring which confirm that (in effect) St Pauls was the original place.
-- 
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

> In message , at 09:27:32 on Sat, 6
> Aug 2005, Jock Mackirdy  remarked:
> >The station building was in a corner of the GPO's Central Telegraph Office,
> >which was bomb-damaged in WWII and semi-derelict when I last saw it in the
> >late 1960s. The vent shafts were obviously a later replacement when the
> >building was demolished and the road layout changed.
>
> Thanks. Clive thinks the building is still there, next to the church. I
> suspect I may divert and have a look for myself next time I'm in town.
>
> (One of the reasons it's interesting, apart from the tube, is that
> distances "from London" were measured from here - rather than Charing
> Cross as many people think.


I think you are mistaken:

http://rodcorp.typepad.com/photos/variousthings/centrelondon_mileage.jpg

Dave

In message , at 
12:09:40 on Sun, 7 Aug 2005, Dave Liney  remarked:

>> (One of the reasons it's interesting, apart from the tube, is that
>> distances "from London" were measured from here - rather than Charing
>> Cross as many people think.
>
>I think you are mistaken:
>
>http://rodcorp.typepad.com/photos/variousthings/centrelondon_mileage.jpg


The first people who needed to know distances from London were the Post 
Office, because they charged by distance (before the penny post).

There may have come a time when road distances were measured from 
Charing Cross instead, but I have several maps from the early days of 
motoring which confirm that (in effect) St Pauls was the original place.
-- 
Roland Perry

In message , Roland 
Perry  writes


>The first people who needed to know distances from London were the Post 
>Office, because they charged by distance (before the penny post).


When the Postmaster General commissioned John Cary to survey the roads 
between post towns in England and Wales in 1790, Cary adopted the system 
already in use on milestones (and used by earlier map-makers) by 
measuring from various locations on the then outskirts of London.

For instance, distances along the road to Richmond started from Hyde 
Park Corner, those along the Great Essex Road started at Whitechapel 
Church, those on the Great North Road at Hick's Hall in Clerkenwell and 
so forth. There are still a couple of milestones on the Upper Richmond 
Road recording the distance to Hyde Park Corner.


>There may have come a time when road distances were measured from 
>Charing Cross instead, but I have several maps from the early days of 
>motoring which confirm that (in effect) St Pauls was the original place.


I've also seen Charing Cross mentioned (although not by Cary). Many 18th 
and early-19th century maps of London include concentric circles to 
indicate distances from St Paul's, but I suspect this is more to do with 
the fact that the cathedral was the highest building in London at that 
time, and thus the most obvious landmark to use.

I suspect that St Paul's had a revival as the "centre" of London in the 
early days of motoring, since it was as close as anywhere to being at 
the starts of several main trunk roads under the 1920 classification 
scheme.

-- 
Paul Terry

In message , Roland 
Perry  writes


>The first people who needed to know distances from London were the Post 
>Office, because they charged by distance (before the penny post).


When the Postmaster General commissioned John Cary to survey the roads 
between post towns in England and Wales in 1790, Cary adopted the system 
already in use on milestones (and used by earlier map-makers) by 
measuring from various locations on the then outskirts of London.

For instance, distances along the road to Richmond started from Hyde 
Park Corner, those along the Great Essex Road started at Whitechapel 
Church, those on the Great North Road at Hick's Hall in Clerkenwell and 
so forth. There are still a couple of milestones on the Upper Richmond 
Road recording the distance to Hyde Park Corner.


>There may have come a time when road distances were measured from 
>Charing Cross instead, but I have several maps from the early days of 
>motoring which confirm that (in effect) St Pauls was the original place.


I've also seen Charing Cross mentioned (although not by Cary). Many 18th 
and early-19th century maps of London include concentric circles to 
indicate distances from St Paul's, but I suspect this is more to do with 
the fact that the cathedral was the highest building in London at that 
time, and thus the most obvious landmark to use.

I suspect that St Paul's had a revival as the "centre" of London in the 
early days of motoring, since it was as close as anywhere to being at 
the starts of several main trunk roads under the 1920 classification 
scheme.

-- 
Paul Terry

> There are still a couple of milestones on the Upper Richmond
> Road recording the distance to Hyde Park Corner.


There is in Twyford too, along London Road (the old A4)

> There are still a couple of milestones on the Upper Richmond
> Road recording the distance to Hyde Park Corner.


There is in Twyford too, along London Road (the old A4)

In message <+uoE1$OIUK5CFAuP@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk>, at 
09:38:32 on Mon, 25 Jul 2005, Roland Perry  
remarked:

>In message , at 08:45:39 on Mon, 25
>Jul 2005, Clive D. W. Feather  remarked:
>>>in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station
>>>was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the
>>>north of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island
>>>next to the entrance to the BT HQ.
>>
>>Isn't it now the "Dental Centre" just beside the church?
>
>I'm going by aerial photos that show a much enlarged road junction, with
>a large triangular traffic island to the west. (View from north).
>
>http://www.perry.co.uk/images/postoffice.jpg
>
>If the old map is accurate, and the station building was next to the
>original alignment of Newgate Street, then the station would surely be
>under the traffic island, or the road between the island and the church.


OK, I've been there now and taken the following (not very well merged, 
and surprisingly difficult arrange to have no busses in) photo:

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/postoffice2.jpg

As others have commented, it seems fairly obvious that the station used 
to be under the ventilation shafts on the traffic island, rather than 
inside the (brown) dentists office.
-- 
Roland Perry

In message <+uoE1$OIUK5CFAuP@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk>, at 
09:38:32 on Mon, 25 Jul 2005, Roland Perry  
remarked:

>In message , at 08:45:39 on Mon, 25
>Jul 2005, Clive D. W. Feather  remarked:
>>>in the middle the "Post Office" after which today's St Paul's station
>>>was originally named. The station building itself is shown to the
>>>north of Newgate St; today probably in the middle of a traffic island
>>>next to the entrance to the BT HQ.
>>
>>Isn't it now the "Dental Centre" just beside the church?
>
>I'm going by aerial photos that show a much enlarged road junction, with
>a large triangular traffic island to the west. (View from north).
>
>http://www.perry.co.uk/images/postoffice.jpg
>
>If the old map is accurate, and the station building was next to the
>original alignment of Newgate Street, then the station would surely be
>under the traffic island, or the road between the island and the church.


OK, I've been there now and taken the following (not very well merged, 
and surprisingly difficult arrange to have no busses in) photo:

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/postoffice2.jpg

As others have commented, it seems fairly obvious that the station used 
to be under the ventilation shafts on the traffic island, rather than 
inside the (brown) dentists office.
-- 
Roland Perry