Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change? My usual mechanic
reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
fluid in my car...

"doki"  wrote in message
news:dbmngd$7mj$1@news.freedom2surf.net...

> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change?


No. Brake fluids, apart from silicone based ones, are hygroscopic. I,e it
absorbs water. Over a period of time this can cause corrosion, apart from
the possibility of braking problems, if the brakes get hot enough to boil
the water content.
2 years is almost universally recognised as the maximum interval between
brake fluid changes.

My usual mechanic

> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
> nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
> fluid in my car...


Get yourself another mechanic. One that understands the importance of
changing it. Especially if you intend to keep the car for any length of
time.
Mike.

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:45:29 +0100, Mike G  wrote:


>
> "doki"  wrote in message
> news:dbmngd$7mj$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
>> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change?
>
> No. Brake fluids, apart from silicone based ones, are hygroscopic. I,e it
> absorbs water. Over a period of time this can cause corrosion, apart from
> the possibility of braking problems, if the brakes get hot enough to boil
> the water content.
> 2 years is almost universally recognised as the maximum interval between
> brake fluid changes.
>


It's the default, not the maximum, many cars specify more than 2 years.



> My usual mechanic
>> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
>> nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
>> fluid in my car...
>
> Get yourself another mechanic. One that understands the importance of
> changing it. Especially if you intend to keep the car for any length of
> time.
> Mike.
>




-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Duncanwood wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:45:29 +0100, Mike G  wrote:
>
> >
> > "doki"  wrote in message
> > news:dbmngd$7mj$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
> >> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change?
> >
> > No. Brake fluids, apart from silicone based ones, are hygroscopic. I,e it
> > absorbs water. Over a period of time this can cause corrosion, apart from
> > the possibility of braking problems, if the brakes get hot enough to boil
> > the water content.
> > 2 years is almost universally recognised as the maximum interval between
> > brake fluid changes.
> >
>
> It's the default, not the maximum, many cars specify more than 2 years.
>
>
> > My usual mechanic
> >> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
> >> nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
> >> fluid in my car...
> >
> > Get yourself another mechanic. One that understands the importance of
> > changing it. Especially if you intend to keep the car for any length of
> > time.
> > Mike.
> >

Confession time here. I've never changed brake fluid on any of my cars
(ok on the Citroens I've changed the hydraulic fluid once). I can't
honestly say I've ever noticed any deterioration in braking performance
and they all passed MOTs with work needed to other parts not the
brakes.

Not that I'm saying you're wrong, maybe I've been lucky.

-- 
Malc

next time your are behind me, wave a Blue flag and I'll let you pass. That 
way you will keep any no claims bonus you have........or may be you don't


"Malc"  wrote in message 
news:1121932068.623425.50800@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

>
>
> Duncanwood wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:45:29 +0100, Mike G  wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > "doki"  wrote in message
>> > news:dbmngd$7mj$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
>> >> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change?
>> >
>> > No. Brake fluids, apart from silicone based ones, are hygroscopic. I,e 
>> > it
>> > absorbs water. Over a period of time this can cause corrosion, apart 
>> > from
>> > the possibility of braking problems, if the brakes get hot enough to 
>> > boil
>> > the water content.
>> > 2 years is almost universally recognised as the maximum interval 
>> > between
>> > brake fluid changes.
>> >
>>
>> It's the default, not the maximum, many cars specify more than 2 years.
>>
>>
>> > My usual mechanic
>> >> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized 
>> >> bleed
>> >> nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old 
>> >> brake
>> >> fluid in my car...
>> >
>> > Get yourself another mechanic. One that understands the importance of
>> > changing it. Especially if you intend to keep the car for any length of
>> > time.
>> > Mike.
>> >
> Confession time here. I've never changed brake fluid on any of my cars
> (ok on the Citroens I've changed the hydraulic fluid once). I can't
> honestly say I've ever noticed any deterioration in braking performance
> and they all passed MOTs with work needed to other parts not the
> brakes.
>
> Not that I'm saying you're wrong, maybe I've been lucky.
>
> -- 
> Malc
> 

doki wrote:

> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change? My usual mechanic
> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
> nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
> fluid in my car...


Is your braking performance obviously lacking?  I don't think Brake 
Fluid just fails suddenly.

I've only been party to fluid changing on 2 or 3 cars.  At least some 
bleed nipples have broken on all occasions.

Douglas

"Duncanwood"  wrote in message
news:op.st86bzp04wom51@amy...

> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:45:29 +0100, Mike G  wrote:
>
> >
> > "doki"  wrote in message
> > news:dbmngd$7mj$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
> >> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change?
> >
> > No. Brake fluids, apart from silicone based ones, are hygroscopic. I,e
it
> > absorbs water. Over a period of time this can cause corrosion, apart
from
> > the possibility of braking problems, if the brakes get hot enough to
boil
> > the water content.
> > 2 years is almost universally recognised as the maximum interval between
> > brake fluid changes.
> >
>
> It's the default, not the maximum, many cars specify more than 2 years.


That doesn't mean that in those cars the fluid stays in good condition
longer.
Car brake systems all work in the same way, so 2 years is a better figure to
work on IMO, regardless of what the manufacturer recommends.
Mike.

"Douglas Payne"  wrote in message
news:42df61f9$0$18644$14726298@news.sunsite.dk...

> doki wrote:
> > Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change? My usual mechanic
> > reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
> > nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
> > fluid in my car...
>
> Is your braking performance obviously lacking?  I don't think Brake
> Fluid just fails suddenly.


It doesn't under normal circumstances, but heavy braking from a high speed.
Maybe downhill as well, 'might' get old fluid hot enough to cause fade, and
reduce braking efficiency.
I'd rather change the fluid and avoid that possibility.


> I've only been party to fluid changing on 2 or 3 cars.  At least some
> bleed nipples have broken on all occasions.


That's always a possibility, but IMO not a very good reason for neglecting
to carry out safety related maintenance.
Mike.

>> 2 years is almost universally recognised as the maximum interval between
>> brake fluid changes.
>
> It's the default, not the maximum, many cars specify more than 2 years.


It depends on the type of fluid, not the car.


>> Get yourself another mechanic. One that understands the importance of
>> changing it.


Seconded.

I.

> Confession time here. I've never changed brake fluid on any of my cars
> (ok on the Citroens I've changed the hydraulic fluid once). I can't
> honestly say I've ever noticed any deterioration in braking performance
> and they all passed MOTs with work needed to other parts not the
> brakes.
>
> Not that I'm saying you're wrong, maybe I've been lucky.


Depends how long you want to keep the car - there's no doubt that old fluid 
can corrode your system from the inside out (because of moisture absorbtion 
in the fluid).

You probably wouldn't notice a deterioration over time - however you might 
well find that if you did change the fluid you'd notice a marked 
improvement.

I.

"Malc"  wrote in message 
news:1121932068.623425.50800@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

>
>
> Duncanwood wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:45:29 +0100, Mike G  wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > "doki"  wrote in message
>> > news:dbmngd$7mj$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
>> >> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change?
>> >
>> > No. Brake fluids, apart from silicone based ones, are hygroscopic. I,e 
>> > it
>> > absorbs water. Over a period of time this can cause corrosion, apart 
>> > from
>> > the possibility of braking problems, if the brakes get hot enough to 
>> > boil
>> > the water content.
>> > 2 years is almost universally recognised as the maximum interval 
>> > between
>> > brake fluid changes.
>> >
>>
>> It's the default, not the maximum, many cars specify more than 2 years.
>>
>>
>> > My usual mechanic
>> >> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized 
>> >> bleed
>> >> nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old 
>> >> brake
>> >> fluid in my car...
>> >
>> > Get yourself another mechanic. One that understands the importance of
>> > changing it. Especially if you intend to keep the car for any length of
>> > time.
>> > Mike.
>> >
> Confession time here. I've never changed brake fluid on any of my cars
> (ok on the Citroens I've changed the hydraulic fluid once). I can't
> honestly say I've ever noticed any deterioration in braking performance
> and they all passed MOTs with work needed to other parts not the
> brakes.
>
> Not that I'm saying you're wrong, maybe I've been lucky.



Its the guy that gets the car after you that will have the probs. The 
moisture in the brake fluid will lead to corrosion then to leaking . . . at 
least thats my theory.

In article <dbmngd$7mj$1@news.freedom2surf.net>, doki says...

> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change? My usual mechanic
> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
> nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
> fluid in my car...
> 

Brake fluid should be changed every two years.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article <42df61f9$0$18644$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, Douglas Payne 
says...

> doki wrote:
> > Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change? My usual mechanic
> > reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
> > nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
> > fluid in my car...
> 
> Is your braking performance obviously lacking?  I don't think Brake 
> Fluid just fails suddenly.
> 
> I've only been party to fluid changing on 2 or 3 cars.  At least some 
> bleed nipples have broken on all occasions.
> 

Do you also skimp on other safety critical items such as tyres and 
suspension because you can't be arsed?

I think cunts like you should have to have a large flourescent sticker 
on saying "I own a dangerous car but it's OK because its still runnning 
- keep out of my way" on.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

Malc (malcolm.white@ubht.swest.nhs.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying : 


> Confession time here. I've never changed brake fluid on any of my cars
> (ok on the Citroens I've changed the hydraulic fluid once). I can't
> honestly say I've ever noticed any deterioration in braking
> performance and they all passed MOTs with work needed to other parts
> not the brakes.


I have had watery brake fluid boil. It is *not* fun, trust me on this.

I have had to replace wheel cylinders that have had seized/sheared nipples 
because they have not been opened in god knows how many years.

I have also had to replace wheel cylinders and master cylinders that have 
rusted internally because somebody decided to ignore the recommendation to 
change the fluid every other year.

I'll change the fluid regularly, thanks.

Agreed.

A no brainer for the sake of a few quid


"Conor"  wrote in message 
news:MPG.1d49baebcb53a9a998a470@news.individual.net...

> In article <dbmngd$7mj$1@news.freedom2surf.net>, doki says...
>> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change? My usual mechanic
>> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
>> nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
>> fluid in my car...
>>
> Brake fluid should be changed every two years.
>
>
> -- 
> Conor
>
> -You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room
> K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python) 

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Malc"
 saying something like:


>Confession time here. I've never changed brake fluid on any of my cars
>(ok on the Citroens I've changed the hydraulic fluid once). I can't
>honestly say I've ever noticed any deterioration in braking performance
>and they all passed MOTs with work needed to other parts not the
>brakes.
>
>Not that I'm saying you're wrong, maybe I've been lucky.


Sure; the brakes will work fine on a day in, day out basis, but come the
time when you really need them to work for an extended period, as the
pedal sinks to the floor you might just wish you'd changed the fluid.
-- 

Dave
SE6a

On 21 Jul 2005 14:05:24 GMT, Adrian  wrote:


>Malc (malcolm.white@ubht.swest.nhs.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much
>like they were saying : 
>
>> Confession time here. I've never changed brake fluid on any of my cars
>> (ok on the Citroens I've changed the hydraulic fluid once). I can't
>> honestly say I've ever noticed any deterioration in braking
>> performance and they all passed MOTs with work needed to other parts
>> not the brakes.
>
>I have had watery brake fluid boil. It is *not* fun, trust me on this.


What are the symtoms of that? I once had a Landcruiser which scared me
when the brakes "vanished" while towing a caravan through the Peak
District, only to return later. I never did discover what caused it. It
only happened twice, but that, as you say, was not fun.


>
>I have had to replace wheel cylinders that have had seized/sheared nipples 
>because they have not been opened in god knows how many years.
>

Just had to replace a caliper on the Omega for just this reason. I have
less problems with most 40-year old cars!
-- 
Regards,  Chris    (Please take out my car to reply by email)     
----1961 Austin A40 Farina----1966 Triumph Herald Estate---
---1967 Riley Elf---1965 Hillman Minx---1969 Morris Minor--
-1972 Mini Clubman estate--1957 Standard 8--1979 Ford Capri
    ********** Please don't email in HTML! **********

Mike G wrote:

> "Douglas Payne"  wrote in message
> news:42df61f9$0$18644$14726298@news.sunsite.dk...
> > doki wrote:
> > > Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change? My usual mechanic
> > > reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
> > > nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
> > > fluid in my car...
> >
> > Is your braking performance obviously lacking?  I don't think Brake
> > Fluid just fails suddenly.
>
> It doesn't under normal circumstances, but heavy braking from a high speed.
> Maybe downhill as well, 'might' get old fluid hot enough to cause fade, and
> reduce braking efficiency.
> I'd rather change the fluid and avoid that possibility.


The time you're most likely brake heavily is in an emergency, and those
are the times when you really don't want problems with your brakes.
Also if you crashed due to the brake fluid not being changed the
insurance company may not pay out.  When you see 'My brakes wouldn't
work' they'll probably want to find out why.


> > I've only been party to fluid changing on 2 or 3 cars.  At least some
> > bleed nipples have broken on all occasions.
>
> That's always a possibility, but IMO not a very good reason for neglecting
> to carry out safety related maintenance.


IIRC there is also a risk of the brake parts rusting, which can cause a
sudden total failure of the system.

Conor wrote:

>
> Do you also skimp on other safety critical items such as tyres and
> suspension because you can't be arsed?
>
> I think cunts like you should have to have a large flourescent sticker
> on saying "I own a dangerous car but it's OK because its still runnning
> - keep out of my way" on.


I do argree with you, but I think we'd need a lot of stickers!  A large
number of drivers have their oil below min, is it 1 in 10 people?
These people and many others will almost cetainly neglect other things
too.  They've probably never opened their bonnet!

I think there are many mechanics out there too who decide that there's
no need to replace the brake fluid.  My mechanic told me that 'it can
wait until the next service', and that was when the oil was just over 2
years old.

doki wrote:

> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change? My usual mechanic
> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth


My mechanic seemed to think that too.


> (presumably seized bleed nipples).


That's what happened when I changed my fluid a few weeks ago.  It only
cost me a fiver to replace a rear brake cylinder though.

Chris Bolus wrote:

> On 21 Jul 2005 14:05:24 GMT, Adrian  wrote:
>
>> Malc (malcolm.white@ubht.swest.nhs.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much
>> like they were saying :
>>
>> I have had watery brake fluid boil. It is *not* fun, trust me on
>> this.
>
> What are the symtoms of that? I once had a Landcruiser which scared me
> when the brakes "vanished" while towing a caravan through the Peak
> District, only to return later. I never did discover what caused it.
> It only happened twice, but that, as you say, was not fun.
>


Umm... pretty much the main symptom is that ... the brakes vanish.

Chris Bolus (chris@FARINAb0lus.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying : 


>>I have had watery brake fluid boil. It is *not* fun, trust me on this.

> What are the symtoms of that? 


In my case, I found the most obvious symptom was a scream of "OH, FUCK, NO 
BRAKES!"


> I once had a Landcruiser which scared me when the brakes "vanished" while 
> towing a caravan through the Peak District, only to return later. I never 
> did discover what caused it. It only happened twice, but that, as you 
> say, was not fun.


Could very well have been.

wrote in message
news:1121966702.996949.256410@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

>
> Conor wrote:
> >
> > Do you also skimp on other safety critical items such as tyres and
> > suspension because you can't be arsed?

> I think there are many mechanics out there too who decide that there's
> no need to replace the brake fluid.  My mechanic told me that 'it can
> wait until the next service', and that was when the oil was just over 2
> years old.


Depends upon when the next service is due.
2 years is not an arbitrary figure. A few months either way, is not going to
make that much difference.
A change 'about' every 2 years, preferably under is good enough.
Mike.

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:48:01 GMT, "PC Paul"  wrote:


>Chris Bolus wrote:
>> On 21 Jul 2005 14:05:24 GMT, Adrian  wrote:
>>
>>> Malc (malcolm.white@ubht.swest.nhs.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much
>>> like they were saying :
>>>
>>> I have had watery brake fluid boil. It is *not* fun, trust me on
>>> this.
>>
>> What are the symtoms of that? I once had a Landcruiser which scared me
>> when the brakes "vanished" while towing a caravan through the Peak
>> District, only to return later. I never did discover what caused it.
>> It only happened twice, but that, as you say, was not fun.
>>
>
>Umm... pretty much the main symptom is that ... the brakes vanish.
>

That's solved that then.
-- 
Regards,  Chris    (Please take out my car to reply by email)     
----1961 Austin A40 Farina----1966 Triumph Herald Estate---
---1967 Riley Elf---1965 Hillman Minx---1969 Morris Minor--
-1972 Mini Clubman estate--1957 Standard 8--1979 Ford Capri
    ********** Please don't email in HTML! **********

"Grimly Curmudgeon"  wrote in message 
news:sigvd1pl2s0hi8qcapcble6d3r75svclcn@4ax.com...

> We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
> drugs began to take hold. I remember "Malc"
>  saying something like:
>
>>Confession time here. I've never changed brake fluid on any of my cars
>>(ok on the Citroens I've changed the hydraulic fluid once). I can't
>>honestly say I've ever noticed any deterioration in braking performance
>>and they all passed MOTs with work needed to other parts not the
>>brakes.
>>
>>Not that I'm saying you're wrong, maybe I've been lucky.
>
> Sure; the brakes will work fine on a day in, day out basis, but come the
> time when you really need them to work for an extended period, as the
> pedal sinks to the floor you might just wish you'd changed the fluid.


True, most of my older cars only lasted a couple of years so they were gone 
before I needed to do a change by my servicing schedule. It's a bit like the 
buying secondhand tyres debate. Lots of people won't buy part used tyres 
because of a perceived risk yet happily drive away in a secondhand car with 
no problems, but the tyres could be equally bad. Most people buying an older 
used car with little service history don't immediately think "I must change 
the brake fluid" yet it could be several years old.


-- 
Malc

"Your mother can't climb stairs"
Dalek playground taunt

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:14:20 +0100, hairy.biker@spamcop.net (Andy Hewitt)
wrote:


>doki  wrote:
>
>> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change? My usual mechanic
>> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
>> nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
>> fluid in my car...
>
>Oh God, please don't start this thread again!
>
>Just get it changed as the manufacturer specifies. That's all I'm saying
>on the matter.


Well, I'm glad someone started this.  My service book says "3 years".  The
36K service (after 2 years) didn't include it, nor did the 48K service
(after 3 years).  Naughty dealers.  The car will be due its 60K service real
soon now (just about 4 years) - I'll make sure the brake fluid is replaced.

-- 
Have you hugged your chute today?

>>> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change? My usual mechanic
>>> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
>>> nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
>>> fluid in my car...
>>
>>Oh God, please don't start this thread again!
>>
>>Just get it changed as the manufacturer specifies. That's all I'm saying
>>on the matter.
>
> Well, I'm glad someone started this.  My service book says "3 years".  The
> 36K service (after 2 years) didn't include it, nor did the 48K service
> (after 3 years).  Naughty dealers.  The car will be due its 60K service 
> real
> soon now (just about 4 years) - I'll make sure the brake fluid is 
> replaced.


That's the problem with main dealers, and a lot of garages.  Because general 
servicing is done on age and mileage, their quoted "menu prices" are for the 
standard service - i.e. if someone's doing 48,000 miles/year, it will will 
need, 4 services in that year.  Someone only doing 8,000 miles/year will 
have had those services carried out annually.  They'd still have had the 
same 4 services done (interim-slightly major-interim-major), but they'd also 
have needed to have things done as per the service schedule, like a brake 
fluid change.

Given that a hell of a lot of people that use main dealer servicing wouldn't 
have a clue about what goes on under the bonnet of a car, it's up to the 
garage to advise what's due.  Someone taking their 3-year-old car in for its 
3rd annual service should be told that it's due a brake fluid change too, 
and that's an extra 60 or whatever it is.  At the end of the day it's the 
garage's responsibility to ensure the car is serviced as required, and it's 
obviously fair to expect the garage to be up-front with the customer about 
the cost before work is started.

It does pay to be clued up about it, as most garages don't offer this sort 
of level of service.

Peter

I've always found that dealer servicing is a bloody expensive price just to 
get the book stamped. With components and parts marked to check if they are 
changed, it is shocking to find that not a lot gets done.

"Full service history"   My arse


"AstraVanMan"  wrote in message 
news:3B4Ee.2892$bT4.311@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...

>>>> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change? My usual mechanic
>>>> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
>>>> nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
>>>> fluid in my car...
>>>
>>>Oh God, please don't start this thread again!
>>>
>>>Just get it changed as the manufacturer specifies. That's all I'm saying
>>>on the matter.
>>
>> Well, I'm glad someone started this.  My service book says "3 years". 
>> The
>> 36K service (after 2 years) didn't include it, nor did the 48K service
>> (after 3 years).  Naughty dealers.  The car will be due its 60K service 
>> real
>> soon now (just about 4 years) - I'll make sure the brake fluid is 
>> replaced.
>
> That's the problem with main dealers, and a lot of garages.  Because 
> general servicing is done on age and mileage, their quoted "menu prices" 
> are for the standard service - i.e. if someone's doing 48,000 miles/year, 
> it will will need, 4 services in that year.  Someone only doing 8,000 
> miles/year will have had those services carried out annually.  They'd 
> still have had the same 4 services done (interim-slightly 
> major-interim-major), but they'd also have needed to have things done as 
> per the service schedule, like a brake fluid change.
>
> Given that a hell of a lot of people that use main dealer servicing 
> wouldn't have a clue about what goes on under the bonnet of a car, it's up 
> to the garage to advise what's due.  Someone taking their 3-year-old car 
> in for its 3rd annual service should be told that it's due a brake fluid 
> change too, and that's an extra 60 or whatever it is.  At the end of the 
> day it's the garage's responsibility to ensure the car is serviced as 
> required, and it's obviously fair to expect the garage to be up-front with 
> the customer about the cost before work is started.
>
> It does pay to be clued up about it, as most garages don't offer this sort 
> of level of service.
>
> Peter
> 

Malc wrote:

	[...]


> Most people buying an older used car with little service history
> don't immediately think "I must change the brake fluid" yet it could
> be several years old.


I would as a matter of course.

Old brake fluid is *dangerous*.


A

In article , John Laird 
says...

> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:14:20 +0100, hairy.biker@spamcop.net (Andy Hewitt)
> wrote:
> 
> >doki  wrote:
> >
> >> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change? My usual mechanic
> >> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
> >> nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
> >> fluid in my car...
> >
> >Oh God, please don't start this thread again!
> >
> >Just get it changed as the manufacturer specifies. That's all I'm saying
> >on the matter.
> 
> Well, I'm glad someone started this.  My service book says "3 years".  The
> 36K service (after 2 years) didn't include it, nor did the 48K service
> (after 3 years).  


They don't. You may notice in the service book that there is an 
additional space for brake fluid changes. You need to ask for it.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:15:34 +0100, Conor  wrote:


>In article , John Laird 
>says...
>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:14:20 +0100, hairy.biker@spamcop.net (Andy Hewitt)
>>
>> Well, I'm glad someone started this.  My service book says "3 years".  The
>> 36K service (after 2 years) didn't include it, nor did the 48K service
>> (after 3 years).  
>
>They don't. You may notice in the service book that there is an 
>additional space for brake fluid changes. You need to ask for it.


Nope.  There are spaces for timing belt and transmission fluid changes.  I
accept I should have been more on the ball, but afaic the brake fluid change
is part of the service schedule.  If I put my really dumb hat on, I would
point out the service book says (more or less) "you check the levels, bring
the car to us regularly and we do what's needed".  The dealer who carried
out the service almost exactly at 36 months (having done all previous
servicing too) dropped a bollock.  They did the ruddy MOT so they've
absolutely no excuse for not noticing how old the car was !

Live and learn.

-- 
It's not crippleware. It's Functionally Challenged.

Mike G wrote:

>
> Depends upon when the next service is due.
> 2 years is not an arbitrary figure. A few months either way, is not going to
> make that much difference.
> A change 'about' every 2 years, preferably under is good enough.


At the next service it would have been over 3 years old, not just a few
months over!

"doki"  wrote in message 
news:dbmngd$7mj$1@news.freedom2surf.net...

> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change? My usual mechanic
> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
> nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
> fluid in my car...
>
>


This would be why my ZX didn't want to stop while fully laden and a trailer 
haring down the Cheviots then. Big smell of cooking from front and brake 
pedal almost on the floor. :-)

"Conor"  wrote in message 
news:MPG.1d4b0fde4a440998a486@news.individual.net...

> In article , John Laird
> says...
>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:14:20 +0100, hairy.biker@spamcop.net (Andy Hewitt)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >doki  wrote:
>> >
>> >> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change? My usual mechanic
>> >> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized 
>> >> bleed
>> >> nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old 
>> >> brake
>> >> fluid in my car...
>> >
>> >Oh God, please don't start this thread again!
>> >
>> >Just get it changed as the manufacturer specifies. That's all I'm saying
>> >on the matter.
>>
>> Well, I'm glad someone started this.  My service book says "3 years". 
>> The
>> 36K service (after 2 years) didn't include it, nor did the 48K service
>> (after 3 years).
>
> They don't. You may notice in the service book that there is an
> additional space for brake fluid changes. You need to ask for it.
>
>

I'm all against dealers/garages ripping people off, but this is one thing I 
think they should do - dealers definitely.  Simply because average Joe 
Bloggs on the street doesn't have the first clue about mechanics etc (like 
me a couple of years ago).
My wife's car has been dealer serviced since she got it - and they've 
changed the brake fluid every other yearly service without asking.  My car 
never received brake fluid change in 2 years, still, good came out of it - I 
learnt to do it myself :)

> 
> This would be why my ZX didn't want to stop while fully laden and a
> trailer haring down the Cheviots then. Big smell of cooking from front and
> brake pedal almost on the floor. :-)


No!

If there was a big smell of cooking, the brakes were working hard. You
almost certainly were suffering from brake fade, a different condition
entirely.

The alleged problem with "stale" brake fluid is that the absorbed water
boils off when the brakes get hot, and turns to steam. This is compressible
so the pedal goes all the way to the floor but with no braking effect.

In the situation you described, any unusual smells would not have been
coming from the car.....

Chris

-- 
Remove prejudice to reply

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:02:45 +0100, Chris Whelan  
 wrote:


>
>>
>> This would be why my ZX didn't want to stop while fully laden and a
>> trailer haring down the Cheviots then. Big smell of cooking from front  
>> and
>> brake pedal almost on the floor. :-)
>
> No!
>
> If there was a big smell of cooking, the brakes were working hard. You
> almost certainly were suffering from brake fade, a different condition
> entirely.
>
> The alleged problem with "stale" brake fluid is that the absorbed water
> boils off when the brakes get hot, and turns to steam. This is  
> compressible
> so the pedal goes all the way to the floor but with no braking effect.
>
> In the situation you described, any unusual smells would not have been
> coming from the car.....
>
> Chris
>



& the pedal goes all the way to the floor, the big difference is when you  
overheat the pads the pedal feels harder, if you boil the fluid it feels  
soggy.

Alistair J Murray wrote:

> Malc wrote:
>
> 	[...]
>
> > Most people buying an older used car with little service history
> > don't immediately think "I must change the brake fluid" yet it could
> > be several years old.
>
> I would as a matter of course.
> 

You're probably the exception that proves the rule innit.

-- 
Malc

"Chris Bolus"  wrote in message 
news:fulvd1lm4os0mht5istljdgfqfjfr8v9hp@4ax.com...

> On 21 Jul 2005 14:05:24 GMT, Adrian  wrote:
>
>>Malc (malcolm.white@ubht.swest.nhs.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much
>>like they were saying :
>>
>>> Confession time here. I've never changed brake fluid on any of my cars
>>> (ok on the Citroens I've changed the hydraulic fluid once). I can't
>>> honestly say I've ever noticed any deterioration in braking
>>> performance and they all passed MOTs with work needed to other parts
>>> not the brakes.
>>
>>I have had watery brake fluid boil. It is *not* fun, trust me on this.
>
> What are the symtoms of that? I once had a Landcruiser which scared me
> when the brakes "vanished" while towing a caravan through the Peak
> District, only to return later. I never did discover what caused it. It
> only happened twice, but that, as you say, was not fun.
>

that's because the brakes reached their limits and couldn't dissipate any 
more heat
the extra load of the towed vehicle would mean this was reached earlier, and 
the fact that youwere going up and down mountains would exaggerate this 
problem
after brake fade like that it is no unconceivable that you have transferred 
some of the heat from the brakes into the calipers and into the fluid so 
changing it would have seen you saying "holy crap, I never though there was 
that much shit in the system" :)

"Chris Whelan"  wrote in message 
news:V9dEe.55$hc4.47@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...

>
>>
>> This would be why my ZX didn't want to stop while fully laden and a
>> trailer haring down the Cheviots then. Big smell of cooking from front 
>> and
>> brake pedal almost on the floor. :-)
>
> No!
>
> If there was a big smell of cooking, the brakes were working hard. You
> almost certainly were suffering from brake fade, a different condition
> entirely.
>
> The alleged problem with "stale" brake fluid is that the absorbed water
> boils off when the brakes get hot, and turns to steam. This is 
> compressible
> so the pedal goes all the way to the floor but with no braking effect.
>
> In the situation you described, any unusual smells would not have been
> coming from the car.....
>
> Chris
>


any hints on curing brake fade ? In "normal" use the brakes seem OK, 
although the pedal bites, then seems to sink a bit under heavier braking, 
then hardens up. The car passed its MOT two weeks ago, which I know may not 
mean a lot, but I think the brakes should be more robust than they are.

Stu.

"Chris Whelan"  wrote in message 
news:V9dEe.55$hc4.47@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...

>
>>
>
> In the situation you described, any unusual smells would not have been
> coming from the car.....
>


And here was me thinking it was something the farmers had put on their 
fields  :-)

Never did a passenger check though.

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:43:18 +0100, Stuart Gray <me@home> wrote:


>
> "Chris Whelan"  wrote in message
> news:V9dEe.55$hc4.47@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
>>
>>>
>>> This would be why my ZX didn't want to stop while fully laden and a
>>> trailer haring down the Cheviots then. Big smell of cooking from front
>>> and
>>> brake pedal almost on the floor. :-)
>>
>> No!
>>
>> If there was a big smell of cooking, the brakes were working hard. You
>> almost certainly were suffering from brake fade, a different condition
>> entirely.
>>
>> The alleged problem with "stale" brake fluid is that the absorbed water
>> boils off when the brakes get hot, and turns to steam. This is
>> compressible
>> so the pedal goes all the way to the floor but with no braking effect.
>>
>> In the situation you described, any unusual smells would not have been
>> coming from the car.....
>>
>> Chris
>>
>
> any hints on curing brake fade ? In "normal" use the brakes seem OK,
> although the pedal bites, then seems to sink a bit under heavier braking,
> then hardens up. The car passed its MOT two weeks ago, which I know may  
> not
> mean a lot, but I think the brakes should be more robust than they are.
>
> Stu.
>
>


That sounds more like flexible brake pipes than fade.

> 
> any hints on curing brake fade ? 


Yes.

Use genuine manufacturers parts, especially pads. When descending long
hills, brake firmly in short bursts rather than braking gently all the way
down. (This allows the pads/disks to cool a bit). If you stop, use the
handbrake rather than keeping your foot on the pedal.

If your use of your vehicle still gives brake fade, consider competition
pads that are designated "road/race". These will cause higher pedal
pressure to be needed in normal braking however.

Finally, drive slower!

Chris

-- 
Remove prejudice to reply

The message 
from "Stuart Gray" <me@home> contains these words:


> any hints on curing brake fade ?


Adapt your driving style so you don't encounter it. Works for me.

-- 
Skipweasel.
Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."

In article <dbmngd$7mj$1@news.freedom2surf.net>,
   doki  wrote:

> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change? My usual mechanic
> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
> nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
> fluid in my car...


Bleed nipples only seize on truly ancient neglected cars.

-- 
*Caution:  I drive like you do.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Stuart Gray" <me@home> wrote in message
news:VuudnZ4a-LnHsH_fRVnytw@pipex.net...

>
> "Chris Whelan"  wrote in message
> news:V9dEe.55$hc4.47@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
> >
> >>
> >> This would be why my ZX didn't want to stop while fully laden and a
> >> trailer haring down the Cheviots then. Big smell of cooking from front
> >> and
> >> brake pedal almost on the floor. :-)

> any hints on curing brake fade ? In "normal" use the brakes seem OK,
> although the pedal bites, then seems to sink a bit under heavier braking,
> then hardens up. The car passed its MOT two weeks ago, which I know may
not
> mean a lot, but I think the brakes should be more robust than they are.


IME spirited driving often shows up shortfalls in std brakes.
Either drive bearing that in mind, or uprate the brakes, either by fitting
different pads, or you may be able to fit the brake discs, calipers, etc
from a higher spec model from the same manufacturer.
As far as their performance when towing unbraked trailers is concerned,
something that doesn't seem to have been mentioned so far, is the importance
of using low gears to aid braking, especially down hill etc.
Mike.

In article , John Laird 
says...


> Live and learn.
> 

Aye. Sadly more and more you have to find out the hard way that things 
that should be included, aren't.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

In article , Stuart Gray says...


> any hints on curing brake fade ? 


Cadence braking.

Slowing down BEFORE you start going down the hill.

Using a lower gear.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:30:25 +0100, Dave Plowman (News)  
 wrote:


> In article <dbmngd$7mj$1@news.freedom2surf.net>,
>    doki  wrote:
>> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change? My usual mechanic
>> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
>> nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
>> fluid in my car...
>
> Bleed nipples only seize on truly ancient neglected cars.
>


You've never had anything to do with a 309 have you?

In article <op.sudb3nmq4wom51@amy>,
   Duncanwood  wrote:

> > Bleed nipples only seize on truly ancient neglected cars.
> >

> You've never had anything to do with a 309 have you?


Luckily, no. Obviously. 

But in many many years of owning old bangers I've never broken a bleed
nipple. Perhaps it's technique?

-- 
*Your kid may be an honours student, but you're still an idiot.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:47:51 +0100, Dave Plowman (News)  
 wrote:


> In article <op.sudb3nmq4wom51@amy>,
>    Duncanwood  wrote:
>> > Bleed nipples only seize on truly ancient neglected cars.
>> >
>
>> You've never had anything to do with a 309 have you?
>
> Luckily, no. Obviously.
>
> But in many many years of owning old bangers I've never broken a bleed
> nipple. Perhaps it's technique?
>




Thinking about it I've never broken one, it's the rounded off corners that  
have pissed me off every time, that's why I have a box of spare ones.

The message <op.sudgnbw34wom51@amy>
from Duncanwood  contains these words:


> Thinking about it I've never broken one, it's the rounded off corners that  
> have pissed me off every time, that's why I have a box of spare ones.


I've just rounded off the lower left bolt that holds the vacuum pump to
the cam carrier on a Perkins Prima. Utterly buggered. Luckily, since I
had a spare pump kicking around under the bench I just snapped it off so
I could get the head off and deal with the bolt once accessible.

-- 
Skipweasel.
Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."

"Guy King"  wrote in message 
news:313030303432373942E243FB91@zetnet.co.uk...

> The message 
> from "Stuart Gray" <me@home> contains these words:
>
>> any hints on curing brake fade ?
>
> Adapt your driving style so you don't encounter it. Works for me.
>
> -- 
> Skipweasel.
> Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."
>
>

No can do. I want to get to places.

"Chris Whelan"  wrote in message 
news:AqqEe.643$Aw4.114@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...

>
>>
>> any hints on curing brake fade ?
>
> Yes.
>
> Use genuine manufacturers parts, especially pads. When descending long
> hills, brake firmly in short bursts rather than braking gently all the way
> down. (This allows the pads/disks to cool a bit). If you stop, use the
> handbrake rather than keeping your foot on the pedal.
>
> If your use of your vehicle still gives brake fade, consider competition
> pads that are designated "road/race". These will cause higher pedal
> pressure to be needed in normal braking however.
>
> Finally, drive slower!
>
> Chris
>
> -- 
> Remove prejudice to reply



Sorry, cannot see this happening - need better brakes

"Duncanwood"  wrote in message 
news:op.suc7fpyn4wom51@amy...

> On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:43:18 +0100, Stuart Gray <me@home> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Chris Whelan"  wrote in message
>> news:V9dEe.55$hc4.47@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
>>>
>>>>
>>>> This would be why my ZX didn't want to stop while fully laden and a
>>>> trailer haring down the Cheviots then. Big smell of cooking from front
>>>> and
>>>> brake pedal almost on the floor. :-)
>>>
>>> No!
>>>
>>> If there was a big smell of cooking, the brakes were working hard. You
>>> almost certainly were suffering from brake fade, a different condition
>>> entirely.
>>>
>>> The alleged problem with "stale" brake fluid is that the absorbed water
>>> boils off when the brakes get hot, and turns to steam. This is
>>> compressible
>>> so the pedal goes all the way to the floor but with no braking effect.
>>>
>>> In the situation you described, any unusual smells would not have been
>>> coming from the car.....
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>
>> any hints on curing brake fade ? In "normal" use the brakes seem OK,
>> although the pedal bites, then seems to sink a bit under heavier braking,
>> then hardens up. The car passed its MOT two weeks ago, which I know may 
>> not
>> mean a lot, but I think the brakes should be more robust than they are.
>>
>> Stu.
>>
>>
>
> That sounds more like flexible brake pipes than fade.


That was one thing that passed my brain. I once had that one a bike of mine, 
but I do think there may be a fault in the master cylinder that may be the 
problem

"Conor"  wrote in message 
news:MPG.1d4c57391b21825198a49e@news.individual.net...

> In article , Stuart Gray says...
>
>> any hints on curing brake fade ?
>
> Cadence braking.
>
> Slowing down BEFORE you start going down the hill.
>
> Using a lower gear.
>
>
> -- 
> Conor
>


 I usually do all that Conor, I'm used to the good old Volvo's I used to 
own, where I could go at any speed I bloodly well wanted. Mebbe I'm 
expecting too much of the French crap I now use.

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:32:45 +0100, Guy King  wrote:


> The message <op.sudgnbw34wom51@amy>
> from Duncanwood  contains these words:
>
>> Thinking about it I've never broken one, it's the rounded off corners  
>> that
>> have pissed me off every time, that's why I have a box of spare ones.
>
> I've just rounded off the lower left bolt that holds the vacuum pump to
> the cam carrier on a Perkins Prima. Utterly buggered. Luckily, since I
> had a spare pump kicking around under the bench I just snapped it off so
> I could get the head off and deal with the bolt once accessible.
>



Has anyone tried the irwin bolt extractors?
http://www.irwin.com/irwin/consumer/jhtml/browse.jhtml?catId=IrwinCat100313

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:16:07 +0100, Stuart Gray <me@home> wrote:


>
> "Duncanwood"  wrote in message
> news:op.suc7fpyn4wom51@amy...
>> On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:43:18 +0100, Stuart Gray <me@home> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Chris Whelan"  wrote in message
>>> news:V9dEe.55$hc4.47@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This would be why my ZX didn't want to stop while fully laden and a
>>>>> trailer haring down the Cheviots then. Big smell of cooking from  
>>>>> front
>>>>> and
>>>>> brake pedal almost on the floor. :-)
>>>>
>>>> No!
>>>>
>>>> If there was a big smell of cooking, the brakes were working hard. You
>>>> almost certainly were suffering from brake fade, a different condition
>>>> entirely.
>>>>
>>>> The alleged problem with "stale" brake fluid is that the absorbed  
>>>> water
>>>> boils off when the brakes get hot, and turns to steam. This is
>>>> compressible
>>>> so the pedal goes all the way to the floor but with no braking effect.
>>>>
>>>> In the situation you described, any unusual smells would not have been
>>>> coming from the car.....
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>
>>> any hints on curing brake fade ? In "normal" use the brakes seem OK,
>>> although the pedal bites, then seems to sink a bit under heavier  
>>> braking,
>>> then hardens up. The car passed its MOT two weeks ago, which I know may
>>> not
>>> mean a lot, but I think the brakes should be more robust than they are.
>>>
>>> Stu.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That sounds more like flexible brake pipes than fade.
>
> That was one thing that passed my brain. I once had that one a bike of  
> mine,
> but I do think there may be a fault in the master cylinder that may be  
> the
> problem
>
>


Could be, but a set of aeroquip hoses is cheaper .

In article , Stuart Gray says...

> 
> "Conor"  wrote in message 
> news:MPG.1d4c57391b21825198a49e@news.individual.net...
> > In article , Stuart Gray says...
> >
> >> any hints on curing brake fade ?
> >
> > Cadence braking.
> >
> > Slowing down BEFORE you start going down the hill.
> >
> > Using a lower gear.
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > Conor
> >
> 
>  I usually do all that Conor, I'm used to the good old Volvo's I used to 
> own, where I could go at any speed I bloodly well wanted. Mebbe I'm 
> expecting too much of the French crap I now use. 
> 

Tis true. All this cost cutting is getting out of hand.


-- 
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)

Stuart Gray wrote:


> I usually do all that Conor, I'm used to the good old Volvo's I used
> to own, where I could go at any speed I bloodly well wanted. Mebbe I'm
> expecting too much of the French crap I now use.


Hammer. Nail. Head. Congratulations.

My volvo has never suffered noticable fade, even when smoke has been pouring 
from the front AND rear brakes. The advice about using original pads and 
discs is good as most modern cars are over-braked, but OE setups are 
designed for "average" use and long life.

If you're driving like a tit, do what I did and get a low cost upgrade at 
least (Brembo HC discs and Ferodo DS pads for me, whatever the respectable 
tuning houses for your car recommends for you). If you're doing trackdays 
then go for a full on big brake kit, or budget for a new set of discs / pads 
every outing.


-- 
"it's very dangerous to fall asleep in the bath, I keep myself awake by
constantly making toast"

doki  wrote:


> Is there any reason not to do a brake fluid change? My usual mechanic
> reckons it's much more trouble that it's worth (presumably seized bleed
> nipples). OTOH, I don't really like the idea of several years old brake
> fluid in my car...


Oh God, please don't start this thread again!

Just get it changed as the manufacturer specifies. That's all I'm saying
on the matter.

-- 
Andy Hewitt **  FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS
Honda Civic: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor)
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/thehewitts2/index.htm
(updated Feb 21 2005)

Stuart Gray wrote:


> 
> "Chris Whelan"  wrote in message
> news:AqqEe.643$Aw4.114@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>>
>>>
>>> any hints on curing brake fade ?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> Use genuine manufacturers parts, especially pads. When descending long
>> hills, brake firmly in short bursts rather than braking gently all the
>> way down. (This allows the pads/disks to cool a bit). If you stop, use
>> the handbrake rather than keeping your foot on the pedal.
>>
>> If your use of your vehicle still gives brake fade, consider competition
>> pads that are designated "road/race". These will cause higher pedal
>> pressure to be needed in normal braking however.
>>
>> Finally, drive slower!
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> --
>> Remove prejudice to reply
> 
> 
> Sorry, cannot see this happening - need better brakes


No, you need a better car!

Chris
-- 
Remove prejudice to reply

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:06:55 +0100, "  dojj" 
wrote:


>
>"Chris Bolus"  wrote in message 
>news:fulvd1lm4os0mht5istljdgfqfjfr8v9hp@4ax.com...
>> On 21 Jul 2005 14:05:24 GMT, Adrian  wrote:
>>
>>>Malc (malcolm.white@ubht.swest.nhs.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much
>>>like they were saying :
>>>
>>>> Confession time here. I've never changed brake fluid on any of my cars
>>>> (ok on the Citroens I've changed the hydraulic fluid once). I can't
>>>> honestly say I've ever noticed any deterioration in braking
>>>> performance and they all passed MOTs with work needed to other parts
>>>> not the brakes.
>>>
>>>I have had watery brake fluid boil. It is *not* fun, trust me on this.
>>
>> What are the symtoms of that? I once had a Landcruiser which scared me
>> when the brakes "vanished" while towing a caravan through the Peak
>> District, only to return later. I never did discover what caused it. It
>> only happened twice, but that, as you say, was not fun.
>>
>that's because the brakes reached their limits and couldn't dissipate any 
>more heat
>the extra load of the towed vehicle would mean this was reached earlier, and 
>the fact that youwere going up and down mountains would exaggerate this 
>problem
>after brake fade like that it is no unconceivable that you have transferred 
>some of the heat from the brakes into the calipers and into the fluid so 
>changing it would have seen you saying "holy crap, I never though there was 
>that much shit in the system" :)
>

More likely the fluid was old I think; the brakes as designed were well
up to the job as the old HJ60 was designed for real heavy-duty work. And
yes, it may be the Peak District, but "mountains" is a bit of an
exaggeration! These are babies compared with Wales or the Scottish
highlands.
-- 
Regards,  Chris    (Please take out my car to reply by email)     
----1961 Austin A40 Farina----1966 Triumph Herald Estate---
---1967 Riley Elf---1965 Hillman Minx---1969 Morris Minor--
-1972 Mini Clubman estate--1957 Standard 8--1979 Ford Capri
    ********** Please don't email in HTML! **********

"Chris Bolus"  wrote in message 
news:cqa7e1dsii9pp54eo94c7ccp266bmbeo8s@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:06:55 +0100, "  dojj" 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Chris Bolus"  wrote in message
>>news:fulvd1lm4os0mht5istljdgfqfjfr8v9hp@4ax.com...
>>> On 21 Jul 2005 14:05:24 GMT, Adrian  wrote:
>>>
>>>>Malc (malcolm.white@ubht.swest.nhs.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much
>>>>like they were saying :
>>>>
>>>>> Confession time here. I've never changed brake fluid on any of my cars
>>>>> (ok on the Citroens I've changed the hydraulic fluid once). I can't
>>>>> honestly say I've ever noticed any deterioration in braking
>>>>> performance and they all passed MOTs with work needed to other parts
>>>>> not the brakes.
>>>>
>>>>I have had watery brake fluid boil. It is *not* fun, trust me on this.
>>>
>>> What are the symtoms of that? I once had a Landcruiser which scared me
>>> when the brakes "vanished" while towing a caravan through the Peak
>>> District, only to return later. I never did discover what caused it. It
>>> only happened twice, but that, as you say, was not fun.
>>>
>>that's because the brakes reached their limits and couldn't dissipate any
>>more heat
>>the extra load of the towed vehicle would mean this was reached earlier, 
>>and
>>the fact that youwere going up and down mountains would exaggerate this
>>problem
>>after brake fade like that it is no unconceivable that you have 
>>transferred
>>some of the heat from the brakes into the calipers and into the fluid so
>>changing it would have seen you saying "holy crap, I never though there 
>>was
>>that much shit in the system" :)
>>
> More likely the fluid was old I think; the brakes as designed were well
> up to the job as the old HJ60 was designed for real heavy-duty work. And
> yes, it may be the Peak District, but "mountains" is a bit of an
> exaggeration! These are babies compared with Wales or the Scottish
> highlands.
> -- 

you hsould see high wycombe then :)



> Regards,  Chris    (Please take out my car to reply by email)
> ----1961 Austin A40 Farina----1966 Triumph Herald Estate---
> ---1967 Riley Elf---1965 Hillman Minx---1969 Morris Minor--
> -1972 Mini Clubman estate--1957 Standard 8--1979 Ford Capri
>    ********** Please don't email in HTML! ********** 

The message <dc0ifo$ma5$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>
from "  dojj"  contains these words:


> you hsould see high wycombe then :)


I used to teach round there. Some of the hill starts used to strike fear
into the hearts of examiners, let alone learners.

-- 
Skipweasel.
Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."

"Guy King"  wrote in message 
news:313030303432373942E3ED2A61@zetnet.co.uk...

> The message <dc0ifo$ma5$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>
> from "  dojj"  contains these words:
>
>> you hsould see high wycombe then :)
>
> I used to teach round there. Some of the hill starts used to strike fear
> into the hearts of examiners, let alone learners.
>

you deffinitly need a motor with a bit of power to get up them :)


> -- 
> Skipweasel.
> Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."
>
> 

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:34:02 +0100, Guy King 
wrote:


>The message <dc0ifo$ma5$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>
>from "  dojj"  contains these words:
>
>> you hsould see high wycombe then :)
>
>I used to teach round there. Some of the hill starts used to strike fear
>into the hearts of examiners, let alone learners.


Ah! Mapperley in Nottingham.
-- 
Regards,  Chris    (Please take out my car to reply by email)     
----1961 Austin A40 Farina----1966 Triumph Herald Estate---
---1967 Riley Elf---1965 Hillman Minx---1969 Morris Minor--
-1972 Mini Clubman estate--1957 Standard 8--1979 Ford Capri
    ********** Please don't email in HTML! **********

Guy King (guy.king@zetnet.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like they 
were saying :


>> you hsould see high wycombe then :)

> I used to teach round there. Some of the hill starts used to strike fear
> into the hearts of examiners, let alone learners.


I grew up in Derbyshire and took my driving test in Buxton.
I now live near Wycombe.

I've never really seen the appeal of flat places...

Adrian wrote:


> Guy King (guy.king@zetnet.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
> were saying :
> 
>>> you hsould see high wycombe then :)
> 
>> I used to teach round there. Some of the hill starts used to strike fear
>> into the hearts of examiners, let alone learners.
> 
> I grew up in Derbyshire and took my driving test in Buxton.
> I now live near Wycombe.
> 
> I've never really seen the appeal of flat places...


Keeping a car for 10 years and not having to change the clutch? Or being
able to go out in the winter perhaps?

:-)

Chris

-- 
Remove prejudice to reply

The message 
from Adrian  contains these words:


> > I used to teach round there. Some of the hill starts used to strike fear
> > into the hearts of examiners, let alone learners.

> I grew up in Derbyshire and took my driving test in Buxton.
> I now live near Wycombe.

> I've never really seen the appeal of flat places...


I had some learners in Hounslow - had to use hump-back railway bridges
for hillstart practice.

-- 
Skipweasel.
Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."

The message <5BKHe.464$jq6.38@newsfe2-win.ntli.net>
from Chris Whelan  contains these words:


> > I've never really seen the appeal of flat places...

> Keeping a car for 10 years and not having to change the clutch? Or being
> able to go out in the winter perhaps?


Part of that's technique. In the snow 3 years ago I got up my road -
about 1:8, so not terrible steep - quite happily while others were
larking about getting stuck and sliding around like penguins. 

The difference was I was towing a trailer with a piano on it.

-- 
Skipweasel.
Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."

"Guy King"  wrote in message 
news:313030303432373942EF894941@zetnet.co.uk...

> The message <5BKHe.464$jq6.38@newsfe2-win.ntli.net>
> from Chris Whelan  contains these words:
>
>> > I've never really seen the appeal of flat places...
>
>> Keeping a car for 10 years and not having to change the clutch? Or being
>> able to go out in the winter perhaps?
>
> Part of that's technique. In the snow 3 years ago I got up my road -
> about 1:8, so not terrible steep - quite happily while others were
> larking about getting stuck and sliding around like penguins.
>
> The difference was I was towing a trailer with a piano on it.
>

i found that i could go up a hill in the snow no problem
but coming down i had to go down a bit, lose control on the ice, reverse up 
a little bit, then go down a bit more and so on and so forth
it took about an hour to trasnverse a hill of about 200 yards, not even a 
great slope, more along the line of pehaps a 1:15


> -- 
> Skipweasel.
> Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."
>
> 

The message <dco10c$77h$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
from "  dojj"  contains these words:


> i found that i could go up a hill in the snow no problem
> but coming down i had to go down a bit, lose control on the ice, reverse up 
> a little bit, then go down a bit more and so on and so forth
> it took about an hour to trasnverse a hill of about 200 yards, not even a 
> great slope, more along the line of pehaps a 1:15


I remember my neighbour sliding into a metal fence on our road 'cos he
didn't remember to release the brakes when he started to slip. Downhill
in snow is relatively easy - stick it in 1st then leave the gear lever,
the steering (as much as possible) and all the pedals alone.

-- 
Skipweasel.
Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."


.
222 43432  article retrieved - body follows
The message <dco10c$77h$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
from "  dojj"  contains these words:


> i found that i could go up a hill in the snow no problem
> but coming down i had to go down a bit, lose control on the ice, reverse up 
> a little bit, then go down a bit more and so on and so forth
> it took about an hour to trasnverse a hill of about 200 yards, not even a 
> great slope, more along the line of pehaps a 1:15


I remember my neighbour sliding into a metal fence on our road 'cos he
didn't remember to release the brakes when he started to slip. Downhill
in snow is relatively easy - stick it in 1st then leave the gear lever,
the steering (as much as possible) and all the pedals alone.

-- 
Skipweasel.
Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."

"Guy King"  wrote in message 
news:313030303432373942EFABF534@zetnet.co.uk...


> I remember my neighbour sliding into a metal fence on our road 'cos he
> didn't remember to release the brakes when he started to slip. Downhill
> in snow is relatively easy - stick it in 1st then leave the gear lever,
> the steering (as much as possible) and all the pedals alone.


A story I have mentioned before - cycling along a snowy road, met a lady 
saying 'you won't be able to go down there, I've blocked the road'. Sure 
enough, she had - put it sideways on an icy single track road. (properly 
icy - all the way across, walking was a bit tricky). With some pushing, we 
got the car pointing the right way again, and I drove it down the rest of 
the hill at rather less than walking pace, using the brakes to keep it there 
(and not letting the wheels lock). Had I tried going down in first with no 
pedals, I'd have been going quite a lot faster, and I really didn't want to 
go any faster at all - especially since it wasn't my car. I did try stopping 
a couple of times, and I was going sufficiently slowly that it worked (after 
sliding for a couple of feet if I tried to lock the wheels rather than being 
careful).

At the bottom she got in and drove off. Set off, accelerated, braked, slid 
for a couple of metres. Still hadn't learned that there wasn't any grip, 
sigh.

Anyway the moral is that there is a place for using brakes on snowy/icy 
hills, but it does take care.

cheers,
clive


.
222 43434 <42efaa23$0$14682$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net> article retrieved - body follows
"Guy King"  wrote in message 
news:313030303432373942EFABF534@zetnet.co.uk...


> I remember my neighbour sliding into a metal fence on our road 'cos he
> didn't remember to release the brakes when he started to slip. Downhill
> in snow is relatively easy - stick it in 1st then leave the gear lever,
> the steering (as much as possible) and all the pedals alone.


A story I have mentioned before - cycling along a snowy road, met a lady 
saying 'you won't be able to go down there, I've blocked the road'. Sure 
enough, she had - put it sideways on an icy single track road. (properly 
icy - all the way across, walking was a bit tricky). With some pushing, we 
got the car pointing the right way again, and I drove it down the rest of 
the hill at rather less than walking pace, using the brakes to keep it there 
(and not letting the wheels lock). Had I tried going down in first with no 
pedals, I'd have been going quite a lot faster, and I really didn't want to 
go any faster at all - especially since it wasn't my car. I did try stopping 
a couple of times, and I was going sufficiently slowly that it worked (after 
sliding for a couple of feet if I tried to lock the wheels rather than being 
careful).

At the bottom she got in and drove off. Set off, accelerated, braked, slid 
for a couple of metres. Still hadn't learned that there wasn't any grip, 
sigh.

Anyway the moral is that there is a place for using brakes on snowy/icy 
hills, but it does take care.

cheers,
clive

The message <42efaa23$0$14682$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
from "Clive George"  contains these words:


> Anyway the moral is that there is a place for using brakes on snowy/icy 
> hills, but it does take care.


When teaching my wife to drive we went out in the snow one day - mostly
'cos it was there and a good chance to play with a new experience. She
was toddling very slowly up to a suburban right-angled bend when the car
behind [1]overtook, failed to find enough traction to make the turn and
went straight through someone's garden wall onto their lawn.

When we stopped to check he was OK - and laugh, of course, he said it
was our fault and that he had /had/ to overtake us as we were going too
slowly.

[1] Would it help if I said this was 16 years ago and it was a red Escort?

-- 
Skipweasel.
Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Guy King 
saying something like:


>Part of that's technique. In the snow 3 years ago I got up my road -
>about 1:8, so not terrible steep - quite happily while others were
>larking about getting stuck and sliding around like penguins. 
>
>The difference was I was towing a trailer with a piano on it.


Grand. You avoided the glissando, then?
-- 

Dave
SE6a

The message 
from Grimly Curmudgeon  contains
these words:


> Grand. You avoided the glissando, then?


Nary a blue note.

-- 
Skipweasel.
Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."