What is up with it? I have been on around 10 class 158s operated by
Wessex, Trenau Arriva Cymru and Northern over the past week, and every
one has had faulty air-Con, though it seems to be working on the SWt
158 and 159s. Whats up with it?

"Joe"  wrote in message 
news:1121877200.430921.180070@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> What is up with it? I have been on around 10 class 158s operated by
> Wessex, Trenau Arriva Cymru and Northern over the past week, and every
> one has had faulty air-Con, though it seems to be working on the SWt
> 158 and 159s. Whats up with it?
>

Happens every summer. Air-con system too weak to cope with hot summer days. 
Presumably because original spec. was more concerned with low cost rather 
than performance capabilities.

Bevan

In article ,
Bevan Price <mynameATTTTfreeukDOTTTcom> wrote:

>
>"Joe"  wrote in message 
>news:1121877200.430921.180070@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> What is up with it? I have been on around 10 class 158s operated by
>> Wessex, Trenau Arriva Cymru and Northern over the past week, and every
>> one has had faulty air-Con, though it seems to be working on the SWt
>> 158 and 159s. Whats up with it?
>>
>Happens every summer. Air-con system too weak to cope with hot summer days. 
>Presumably because original spec. was more concerned with low cost rather 
>than performance capabilities.


Not even slightly. The a/c - when these units were new - was sufficient
to freeze an entire colony of penguins (ob. Wales: Pen Gwyn). It was,
however, designed to use CFCs in the coolant circuit. These are 
undesirable if you want to (a) avoid nasty cancers and (b) retain vision.
Hence HCFCs (and more recently other stuff) in the coolant circuit. These 
are less effective at heat transfer. Unsuprisingly this leads to problems 
with the a/c, with it either being unable to cope or with bits getting 
over-stressed.

W&B started rebuilding the fleet with Stones water-vapour systems, and
these seem to work well. The conversion programmme was IIRC not completd
when W&B were dismembered, and there may be constraints in the 158 design
for heat exchangers - so problems may have developed (any one actually 
//know// about the current state of the Stone systems on the refurbs?)

-- 
Andy Breen ~ 	Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
		http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
		"Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)

"Bevan Price" <mynameATTTTfreeukDOTTTcom> wrote in message 
news:1121879713.82281.0@dyke.uk.clara.net...

>
> "Joe"  wrote in message 
> news:1121877200.430921.180070@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> What is up with it? I have been on around 10 class 158s operated by
>> Wessex, Trenau Arriva Cymru and Northern over the past week, and every
>> one has had faulty air-Con, though it seems to be working on the SWt
>> 158 and 159s. Whats up with it?
>>
> Happens every summer. Air-con system too weak to cope with hot summer 
> days. Presumably because original spec. was more concerned with low cost 
> rather than performance capabilities.
>
> Bevan
>
>
>

At least on a 158 there are a couple of windows the guard / ticket collector 
can open if you ask them nicely.

I was on a HST last summer and we ended up lowering the windows in the doors 
at either end of the coach and wedging the sliding doors open!

Dave

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:15:08 +0100, "Bevan Price"
<mynameATTTTfreeukDOTTTcom> wrote:


>Happens every summer. Air-con system too weak to cope with hot summer days. 
>Presumably because original spec. was more concerned with low cost rather 
>than performance capabilities.


It, like Mk2 and Mk3 aircon, was designed for use with CFCs.  With
these banned, the replacements are not as effective refrigerants, so
the aircon is now somewhat under-specced for the units.

I remember riding the units before the CFC ban in the height of
summer, and the aircon was *wonderful*, just like it is on a Pendolino
(with aircon designed for "modern" refrigerants).

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

In article ,
Neil Williams  wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:15:08 +0100, "Bevan Price"
><mynameATTTTfreeukDOTTTcom> wrote:
>
>>Happens every summer. Air-con system too weak to cope with hot summer days. 
>>Presumably because original spec. was more concerned with low cost rather 
>>than performance capabilities.
>
>It, like Mk2 and Mk3 aircon, was designed for use with CFCs.  With
>these banned, the replacements are not as effective refrigerants, so
>the aircon is now somewhat under-specced for the units.
>
>I remember riding the units before the CFC ban in the height of
>summer, and the aircon was *wonderful*, just like it is on a Pendolino
>(with aircon designed for "modern" refrigerants).


/Please/ don't insult the noble 158 by comparing any of its systems
to the Mk.2, which was an electrical disaster area (as BR recognised
by going for 3-phase supply in the 253/254...). Mk.3s, when new, didn;t
have bad a/c at all, though - apart from the far-famed //stench// of
char-grilled Ferado under braking.

-- 
Andy Breen ~ 	Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
		http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
		"Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)

On 20 Jul 2005 20:05:52 +0100 someone who may be azb@aber.ac.uk
(Andrew Robert Breen) wrote this:-


>W&B started rebuilding the fleet with Stones water-vapour systems, and
>these seem to work well.


158s here all seem to have little notices about improved
air-conditioning and I have not encountered one that was imitating
an oven this summer.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

Joe wrote:

> What is up with it? I have been on around 10 class 158s operated by
> Wessex, Trenau Arriva Cymru and Northern over the past week, and every
> one has had faulty air-Con, though it seems to be working on the SWt
> 158 and 159s. Whats up with it?


New refrigerants are not as good, and old systems wear out. Look for
the 158s with large square panels near the cab roof festooned with fine
grills. They are more likely to work.

"David Hansen"  wrote in message 
news:t1dtd1du5620emqjo5gasooef236l6e2qg@4ax.com...

> On 20 Jul 2005 20:05:52 +0100 someone who may be azb@aber.ac.uk
> (Andrew Robert Breen) wrote this:-
>
>>W&B started rebuilding the fleet with Stones water-vapour systems, and
>>these seem to work well.
>
> 158s here all seem to have little notices about improved
> air-conditioning and I have not encountered one that was imitating
> an oven this summer.


Yep, all ScotRail 158s modified with new Liebherr (IIRC) aircon at Inverness 
depot over the last few months.

In article ,
   Joe  wrote:

> What is up with it? I have been on around 10 class 158s operated by
> Wessex, Trenau Arriva Cymru and Northern over the past week, and every
> one has had faulty air-Con, though it seems to be working on the SWt
> 158 and 159s. Whats up with it?


The a/c in the SWT 159s is just as bad as the other 158s. The only decent
a/c is in the small number of Wales & Borders 158s which were re-equipped
with new Stone systems some years ago. Sadly this program was stopped when
W&B was split up.

David

I was surprised conductor on NR service out of Bridlington a couple of weeks 
ago refused to open windows and told anyone suffering in the heat to move to 
other coach where aircon was working. After a change of crew the same 
happened out of Hull and there was the impression that crews had been 
instructed not to open windows, although I saw many 158s with open windows. 
My train was an ex-CT 158; I cannot get away from them.

David

Salisbury depot are currently fitting all of their 159s with Liebherr
units as well.  159009 (which I travelled home on last night) was like
a fridge.  Just a shame that by the time they've fitted all 22 units,
it'll be the middle of winter......

Matt (Salisbury)

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:59:14 GMT, "David Thornhill"
 wrote:


>I was surprised conductor on NR service out of Bridlington a couple of weeks 
>ago refused to open windows and told anyone suffering in the heat to move to 
>other coach where aircon was working. After a change of crew the same 
>happened out of Hull and there was the impression that crews had been 
>instructed not to open windows, although I saw many 158s with open windows. 
>My train was an ex-CT 158; I cannot get away from them.
>
>David 
>

 The air-con on SWT's refurbished 158s seems to work well, I assume
they've installed a new design?

Anyone know who refurbed SWT's 158s? It's been done to a good standard
and they are as good as their existing 159s.

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:59:14 GMT, David Thornhill wrote in
<SlKDe.5685$jo3.3693@newsfe5-win.ntli.net>, seen in uk.railway:


> I was surprised conductor on NR service out of Bridlington a couple of weeks 
> ago refused to open windows and told anyone suffering in the heat to move to 
> other coach where aircon was working. After a change of crew the same 
> happened out of Hull and there was the impression that crews had been 
> instructed not to open windows, although I saw many 158s with open windows. 


I wonder if the crews actually know how to reset the aircon on these
158s. Quite often you can keep a reasonable temperature by just
checking the control unit and resetting every 15 minutes or so. 

Mind you, it depends on which control unit they have. Some CT units
have the original EBAC-style control unit and the screens on those can
be almost impossible to read, so you can't always tell what the aircon
thinks it's doing.

-- 
Ross, Lincoln, UK

We're *not* afraid
http://www.werenotafraid.com

>
> I wonder if the crews actually know how to reset the aircon on these
> 158s. Quite often you can keep a reasonable temperature by just
> checking the control unit and resetting every 15 minutes or so.


In ATN days all conductors were issued with details, and where needed the
reset codes, of how to reset the air-con systems.

They were also instructed to shut all windows before resetting it. However
they weren't told to open the windows again if the reset had failed.


> Mind you, it depends on which control unit they have. Some CT units
> have the original EBAC-style control unit and the screens on those can
> be almost impossible to read, so you can't always tell what the aircon
> thinks it's doing.


The TPX and Northern (the former ATN fleet) 158s have three different
systems, the EBAC, the one Ive forgotten and 158799 (or was it 798) was
fitted with Stones.


-- 
http://europeanrailways.fotopic.net/
Any views or opinions expressed and presented are not those of the author
and do not represent those of his employers, they belong to the voices in
his head.

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:41:41 +0000 (UTC), Boogaloo wrote in
<dbpbrk$so$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, seen in
uk.railway:


> > I wonder if the crews actually know how to reset the aircon on these
> > 158s. Quite often you can keep a reasonable temperature by just
> > checking the control unit and resetting every 15 minutes or so.
> 
> In ATN days all conductors were issued with details, and where needed the
> reset codes, of how to reset the air-con systems.


The EBAC one is simple enough; on the original units you have to trip
and reset the system and go into maintenance mode when it offers  the
option, and on the later EBACs the code is EBAC, albeit numeric. :) 
 


> They were also instructed to shut all windows before resetting it. However
> they weren't told to open the windows again if the reset had failed.


Should give it at least 15 minutes before reopening windows if the
reset has worked initially. Depends on the nature of the failure; ISTR
that a low coolant failure meant it was dead whereas a high coolant
failure just meant it had tripped out (presumably overheated)  but
would reset after a while.
 
It was the idiots who had a totally failed aircon and forced it into
test cooling, thus blowing hot air around, I could never understand.



> > Mind you, it depends on which control unit they have. Some CT units
> > have the original EBAC-style control unit and the screens on those can
> > be almost impossible to read, so you can't always tell what the aircon
> > thinks it's doing.
> 
> The TPX and Northern (the former ATN fleet) 158s have three different
> systems, the EBAC, the one Ive forgotten and 158799 (or was it 798) was
> fitted with Stones.


We just have the two types of EBAC AFAIK. But then aircon is nothing
to do with me any more by rights (and in fact I got told off by a
driver boss type for resetting as "it's not your job" - bollocks,
that's what I say to that) and I doubt any of our newer guards know
about the things. It's difficult enough getting some of them to
understand the idea of pressing F1-F4-F4 for forced cooling on the
170s... :(

-- 
Ross, Lincoln, UK

We're *not* afraid
http://www.werenotafraid.com

Hi

As far as I can tell the CT and ex CT 158s have very effective aircon,
though judging by the gesticulations of the driver of one I had
recently, this may not extend to the cab!  That said, for me the best
air con is the type fitted to class 142s - lots of opening windows!

Jeff

Joe wrote:

> What is up with it? I have been on around 10 class 158s operated by
> Wessex, Trenau Arriva Cymru and Northern over the past week, and every
> one has had faulty air-Con, though it seems to be working on the SWt
> 158 and 159s. Whats up with it?

>
> As far as I can tell the CT and ex CT 158s have very effective aircon,
> though judging by the gesticulations of the driver of one I had
> recently, this may not extend to the cab!  That said, for me the best
> air con is the type fitted to class 142s - lots of opening windows!
>


Theres only two opening cab windos, just like every other sprinter and
pacer.

The problem with 142s is all the glass which makes them heat up like a
greenhouse. Hence the tinted window 142&144s running about in the north.


-- 
http://europeanrailways.fotopic.net/
Any views or opinions expressed and presented are not those of the author
and do not represent those of his employers, they belong to the voices in
his head.