In my earlier years, using the CLC to the west of Manchester, I seem to
remember that a railway "coach" was the long thing with buffers and
couplings at each end, and that a coach might contain several "carriage"s,
each with their own doors.  Also that the term "carriage" might be applied
to the short Victorian style "coach" with ~6 doors, and accommodation for
about 12-20 people.

Has modern usage changed, or have I always been confused?

-- 
M Stewart
Milton Keynes, UK

"Malcolm Stewart"  wrote in 
message news:dblf9c$bn3$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...

> In my earlier years, using the CLC to the west of Manchester, I seem to
> remember that a railway "coach" was the long thing with buffers and
> couplings at each end, and that a coach might contain several "carriage"s,
> each with their own doors.  Also that the term "carriage" might be applied
> to the short Victorian style "coach" with ~6 doors, and accommodation for
> about 12-20 people.
>
> Has modern usage changed, or have I always been confused?


I'd have used the word "compartment" to describe the separate sections of a 
coach/carriage, each with its own door(s). I think modern railway usage is 
"coach" rather than "carriage" (although popular usage is "carriage"), 
especially when referring to a specific vehcile within the train: "The 
buffet car is situated in Coach F".

I think the correct term is coaches.

Although if travelling on certain operators stock they are know as a
'Pen' or 'Sty' by the passengers.

It's also not uncommon to here the term 'Shithole' and 'Skip' used on
Central Trains stock. :-)

And don't forget that if you're talking about London Underground
trains, the "coaches" or "carriages" are actually "cars", just to
confuse the issue further.

Regards

Matt

"M J Forbes"  wrote in news:1121868273.836393.34660
@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:


> And don't forget that if you're talking about London Underground
> trains, the "coaches" or "carriages" are actually "cars", just to
> confuse the issue further.
> 


That is because of the American ownership of a number of the companies that 
originally built and ran the London Underground.

In North America "cars" can refer to both carriages and trucks - whereas 
the word "trucks" is applied to what in British usage is a bogie. "Coach" 
is also applied to passenger cars in terms of its type or class: "coach" 
being a carriage with basic seating - in contrast to higher grades of 
accomodation. 


-- 
Stephen Rees
Richmond BC
Canada

Archive of my railway pictures 
http://stephen5147.fotopic.net/

M J Forbes wrote:

> And don't forget that if you're talking about London Underground
> trains, the "coaches" or "carriages" are actually "cars", just to
> confuse the issue further.


I thought that "car" was widely used in connection with multiple unit
stock (e.g. a 3-car set).  Signs on platforms that indicate stopping
points for short trains may vary in format, but some at least have, for
example, "4 CAR STOP".
-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Good point.  I'd forgotten about that.

"Stephen Rees"  wrote

>
> In North America "cars" can refer to both carriages and trucks - whereas
> the word "trucks" is applied to what in British usage is a bogie. "Coach"
> is also applied to passenger cars in terms of its type or class: "coach"
> being a carriage with basic seating - in contrast to higher grades of
> accomodation.
>

Pullman, again with North American influence, also referred to cars. The
only uk Pullman cars which became coaches were those which were demoted to
Camping Coaches at the end of their life.

Peter

M J Forbes wrote:

> Good point.  I'd forgotten about that.


TO MJ FORBES AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO POSTS VIA GOOGLE GROUPS:

If you post a response like that, especially if it's in a complex thread
with many sub-threads of discussion, it won't be at all obvious what you
are referring to.  PLEASE quote at least some of the previous message,
then add your response below it.  In Google Groups, you do that by
clicking on "show options", then on the "Reply" immediately after the
Subject line, not the "Reply" at the end of the message.

I've written to Google to ask them to quote previous text by default,
and I urge others who are irritated by replies out of context, most of
which arrive via Google Groups, to do so as well.
-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Richard J. wrote:

> M J Forbes wrote:
> > And don't forget that if you're talking about London Underground
> > trains, the "coaches" or "carriages" are actually "cars", just to
> > confuse the issue further.


But surely 'car' is a contraction of 'carriage' whether it be road or
rail use so it does not confuse the matter.

--
Nick

D7666 wrote:

> Richard J. wrote:

.... but you didn't quote what I wrote!


>> M J Forbes wrote:
>>> And don't forget that if you're talking about London Underground
>>> trains, the "coaches" or "carriages" are actually "cars", just to
>>> confuse the issue further.
> 
> But surely 'car' is a contraction of 'carriage'


No.

-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Richard J. wrote:


> I thought that "car" was widely used in connection with multiple unit
> stock (e.g. a 3-car set).  Signs on platforms that indicate stopping
> points for short trains may vary in format, but some at least have, for
> example, "4 CAR STOP".


Historically, "car" was simply an abbreviation for "carriage" and I
suspect that in this abbreviation "car" is an abbreviation too.

In my day, "coach" and "carriage" were virually interchangeable,
although there were certain usages where one was preferred to the
other. We always spoke of an eight-coach train, for example, and never
an eight-carriage train.

J.A.

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:05:58 GMT someone who may be "Richard J."
 wrote this:-


>> But surely 'car' is a contraction of 'carriage'
>
>No.


Proof by assertion.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

On 20 Jul 2005 19:19:46 -0700 someone who may be "Sir John Aspinall"
 wrote this:-


>In my day, "coach" and "carriage" were virually interchangeable,
>although there were certain usages where one was preferred to the
>other. We always spoke of an eight-coach train, for example, and never
>an eight-carriage train.


I agree that usage has varied over the years, reflecting fashions of
the time and local variations. Carriage is now less used than coach
ISTM. We are also seeing the coming back into more common use of
vehicle. All signs of a living language.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

"Sir John Aspinall"  wrote

>
> Historically, "car" was simply an abbreviation for "carriage" and I
> suspect that in this abbreviation "car" is an abbreviation too.
>

It seems to have been rather the opposite. 'Car' was the original word;
'carry' was derived from 'car', and 'carriage' was derived from 'carry'.

Peter

Peter Masson schrieb:

> "Sir John Aspinall"  wrote
> 
>>Historically, "car" was simply an abbreviation for "carriage" and I
>>suspect that in this abbreviation "car" is an abbreviation too.
>>
> 
> It seems to have been rather the opposite. 'Car' was the original word;
> 'carry' was derived from 'car', and 'carriage' was derived from 'carry'.
> 
> Peter
> 
> 



I learned that car is more a self propelled vehicle (in german 
schienenbus)- is this true

and coach ist more used for busses?

thanks


G.fried

David Hansen wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:05:58 GMT someone who may be "Richard J."
>  wrote this:-
>
>>> But surely 'car' is a contraction of 'carriage'
>>
>> No.
>
> Proof by assertion.


It was shorthand for "you're wrong, but at 1 a.m. I can't be bothered to
quote the word-origin details from the dictionary".
-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

"Peter Masson"  wrote in message 
news:dbnqj9$nuc$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

>
> "Sir John Aspinall"  wrote
>>
>> Historically, "car" was simply an abbreviation for "carriage" and I
>> suspect that in this abbreviation "car" is an abbreviation too.
>>
> It seems to have been rather the opposite. 'Car' was the original word;
> 'carry' was derived from 'car', and 'carriage' was derived from 'carry'.



Isn't "carriage" a term used mainly for a pulled item while "car" is mainly 
self-propelled?

KW

In news:42df7544$0$26170$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at,
G.fried  typed:


> and coach ist more used for busses?



In east Kent, in the days of the East Kent Road Car Company (rather than the 
Stagecoach sound-alike) buses and coaches were always referred to as 'cars'.


-- 
Bob

In news:ZNKDe.74451$G8.27348@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk,
Richard J.  typed:


> David Hansen wrote:
> > On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:05:58 GMT someone who may be "Richard J."
> >  wrote this:-
> >
> > > > But surely 'car' is a contraction of 'carriage'
> > >
> > > No.
> >
> > Proof by assertion.
>
> It was shorthand for "you're wrong, but at 1 a.m. I can't be bothered
> to quote the word-origin details from the dictionary".


I seemed to remember this being debated before, here or somewhere else.  The 
conclusion was that 'car' derived from the Latin 'carrus'  -  a four wheeled 
vehicle, whilst 'carriage' derived from Old French 'carier, charier'  -  to 
cart (a burden).

I could be wrong.


-- 
Bob

In article <RPLDe.9276$F_2.911@newsfe6-win.ntli.net>,
Bob Wood  wrote:

>In news:ZNKDe.74451$G8.27348@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk,
>Richard J.  typed:
>
>> David Hansen wrote:
>> > On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:05:58 GMT someone who may be "Richard J."
>> >  wrote this:-
>> >
>> > > > But surely 'car' is a contraction of 'carriage'
>> > >
>> > > No.
>> >
>> > Proof by assertion.
>>
>> It was shorthand for "you're wrong, but at 1 a.m. I can't be bothered
>> to quote the word-origin details from the dictionary".
>
>I seemed to remember this being debated before, here or somewhere else.  The 
>conclusion was that 'car' derived from the Latin 'carrus'  -  a four wheeled 
>vehicle, whilst 'carriage' derived from Old French 'carier, charier'  -  to 
>cart (a burden).



From the OED: CAR (meaning 1)

"    1. A wheeled vehicle or conveyance:    a. generally{em}a carriage, 
chariot, cart, wagon, truck, etc. (Now little used in this wide sense.)
 
  1382 WYCLIF Isa. lxvi. 16 His foure horsid carres [1388 charis]. c1400 
MANDEVILLE xi. (1839) 130 Ne Hors ne Carre nouther. c1440 Promp. Parv. 62 
Carre, carte, carrus, currus. 1480 Wardr. Acc. Edw. IV (1830) 122 For 
cariage..of the Kinges carre..from Grenewiche. 1600 HOLLAND Livy XXV. 
xiii. 556 They sent little above forty carres [vehicula]. 1611 BIBLE 1 
Esdras v. 55 They gaue carres that they should bring Cedar trees from 
Libanus. 1750 BEAWES Lex Mercat. (1752) 399 Merchants, and others that 
use Carrs or Carts.
 

    b. From 16th to 19th c. chiefly poetic, with associations of dignity, 
solemnity, or splendour; applied also to the fabled chariot of Phathon 
or the sun, and so to that in which the moon, stars, day, night, time, 
are figured to ride in their grand procession. Also in prose, a chariot 
of war, triumph, or pageantry.
 
  1590 SPENSER F.Q. I. ii. 1 Phoebus fiery carre In hast was climbing up 
the Easterne hill. 1594 SHAKES. Rich. III, V. iii. 20 The weary Sun..by 
the bright Tract of his fiery carre. 1667 MILTON P.L. IX. 65 Four times 
[he] cross'd the Carr of Night. 1697 DRYDEN Virg. Georg. III. 795 To draw 
the Carr of Jove's Imperial Queen. 1738 GLOVER Leonidas III. 133 The king 
arose. ?No more; prepare my car.? 1758 JOHNSON Idler No. 51 {page}9 A 
slave was placed on the triumphal car. 1852 TENNYSON Ode Wellington 55 
And a reverent people behold The towering car, the sable steeds. 1853 
ROBERTSON Serm. Ser. III. vii. 93 Whose body opposing the progress of the 
car of Juggernaut is crushed beneath its monstrous wheels.
 

    c. spec. Applied locally and at special periods to various vehicles 
in particular; also with defining words, as Irish car, etc.
 
  1576 Act 18 Eliz. x. 4 Cars or Drags, furnished 
for..Repairing..Highways. 1704 WORLIDGE Dict. Rust. et Urb. s.v. Beech, 
Some approve it much for Cars. 1716 Lond. Gaz. No. 5446/2 Carts, Drays, 
Carrs and Waggons. 1824-7 HONE Every-day Bk. II. 240 The common Irish Car 
is used throughout the province of Leinster..The Irish ?jaunting car? [is 
a] wholly distinct and superior vehicle. 1838 Murray's Handbk. N. Germany 
318 A Russian Mountain, down which visitors descend in cars. Mod. In some 
provincial towns (e.g. Birmingham) ?car? means a four-wheeled hackney 
carriage, ?cab? meaning a hansom.
 

    d. transf. A miniature carriage or truck used in experiments, etc.
 
  1831 BREWSTER Nat. Magic iv. (1833) 87 The living object AB, the mirror 
MN, and the lens LL, must all be placed in a moveable car for the purpose 
of producing the variations in the size of the phantasms."

CARRIAGE: most early meanings concern burdens etc. For vehicles:

"    {dag}23. A vehicle or means of conveyance of any kind. Obs. exc. in 
wheel carriage; = next.
 
  15.. Dk. Northumb. Household Bk. xlix. (1827) 386 Ther shall be a 
Caryage apontide at every Remevall for the Cariage of my Lordes Childre 
Stuff. 1665 G. HAVERS P. della Valle's Trav. E. India 90 One of those 
Carriages which the Portugals call Rete..a net of cords ty'd at the head 
and feet, and hanging down from a great Indian Cane. 1740 JOHNSON Drake 
Wks. IV. 441 The most useful animals of this country..serving as 
carriages over rocks and mountains. 1771 SMOLLETT Humph. Cl. 23 Apr., The 
poor chair~men and their carriages. Ibid. 26 Apr., Coaches, chaises, 
chairs, and other carriages. 1776 ADAM SMITH W.N. (1869) II. V. i. 307 A 
high way, a bridge, a navigable canal, may..be..made and maintained by a 
small toll upon the carriages that make use of them. 1786 BURNS 
Inventory, Wheel carriages I hae but few, Three carts..ae auld 
wheelbarrow. 1837 CARLYLE Fr. Rev. (1872) III. 94 No wheel-carriage rolls 
this morning in these streets.
 

    {dag}24. A wheeled vehicle generally. Obs. or arch.
 
  1560 WHITEHORNE Arte Warre (1588) 41 Euery ten men of armes, should 
haue fiue carriages. 1611 COTGR., Charroy, a cart, or other cariage. 1693 
Pittington Vestry Bk. (Surtees) 210 For mending the church gate that 
carriages comes in at, 2s. 6d. 1711 Lond. Gaz. No. 4935/4 Wheels of all 
manner of Carriages. 1741 Act 14 George II, xlii. 5 Carts, waggons, or 
other carriages, employed only about Husbandry, or carrying of only 
Cheese, Butter, Hay, Straw, Corn. 1757 Gentl. Mag. 528 
Laws..for..regulating the drivers of carriages within this city [London].
 

    25. A wheeled vehicle for conveying persons, as distinct from one for 
the transport of goods. Often in comb., as hackney-carriage, 
railway-carriage, travelling-carriage, etc. spec. ellipt. for 
railway-carriage.
 
  1706 PHILLIPS, Carriage, also a kind of cover'd or close waggon. 1748 
SMOLLETT Rod. Rand. xi, The master of the waggon..fearing the captain and 
his lady would take umbrage and leave his carriage, etc. 1751 {emem} Per. 
Pic. lii. (heading), The whole company set out for Ghent in the 
Diligence..Our Hero is captivated by a Lady in that Carriage. 1830 E. 
GROSVENOR Jrnl. Aug. (1965) vi. 127 There were 3 steam engines and 
carriages attached to each. 1837 CARLYLE Fr. Rev. II. IV. v, Monsieur in 
a commonplace travelling carriage is off Northwards. 1859 Carriage 
Builders' & Harness Makers' Art Jrnl. I. 66/1 A train started from 
Worcester at half-past three, p.m., and consisted of six carriages with 
an engine and tender. 1875 Echo 29 Oct., The Supervisor of Excise..said 
that the word ?carriage? as defined by the Act of Parliament, meant any 
vehicle not used for carrying merchandise or any kind of goods. 1884 M. 
E. BRADDON Ishmael xxix, Lolling in the corner of a railway carriage. 
1921 A. HUXLEY Crome Yellow i. 2 What right had he to sit in the 
sunshine, to occupy corner seats in third-class carriages, to be alive? 
1958 J. BETJEMAN Coll. Poems 265 The train at Pershore station was 
waiting that Sunday night Gas light on the platform, in my carriage 
electric light.
 

    26. spec. A wheeled vehicle kept for private use for driving in; 
especially an elegant four-wheeled vehicle having accommodation for four 
persons inside, and drawn by two or more horses. carriage and pair: one 
drawn by a pair of horses.
  This use began about the middle of the 18th c.; coach was the word in 
earlier use.
 
  [1741 Act 14 Geo. II, xlii. 5 The covered Carriages of noblemen and 
Gentlemen for their private use.] 1771 SMOLLETT Humph. Cl. 24 May, The 
postilion behind, endeavouring to stop the carriage. 1794 W. FELTON 
(title), A Treatise on Carriages, comprehending Coaches, Chariots, 
Phtons, Curricles, Gigs, Whiskies, etc. 1848 THACKERAY Van. Fair viii, A 
carriage and four splendid horses. 1879 Times 27 Aug., The party drove 
off in a carriage and pair. 1884 M. E. BRADDON Ishmael xxix, I wonder 
that you can drive in an open carriage in such weather.
 

    ** In technical use.

    27. The wheeled support on which a piece of ordnance is mounted; a 
gun-carriage.
 
  1560 WHITEHORNE Arte Warre (1588) 97 To make the carriage of the 
artillery, with the spokes of ye wheele crooked. 1603 KNOLLES Hist. Turks 
(J.), He commanded the great ordnance to be laid upon carriages, which 
before lay bound in great unweildy timber. 1706 PHILLIPS, Carriages for 
Pieces of Ordinance, a kind of long, narrow Carts, each made to the 
proportion of the Gun it is to carry. 1776 W. HEATH in Sparks Corr. Amer. 
Rev. (1853) I. 278, I should be glad to have the carriages for the four 
pounders sent forward. 1874 KNIGHT Dict. Mech., s.v. Cannon, The gun is 
mounted on a steel carriage weighing 15 tons."

Wyclif used "car" for a vehicle, "carriage" for the movement of the
stuff (
  1388 WYCLIF Gen. xlv. 19 That thei take waynes..to the cariage)

note that he's talking here about the carriage of stuff in the wains.
Early use therefor seems to have been that you might have carriage of
goods or people in a car. The dates for the uses of "carriage" for 
vehicles suggests that the first usage was the gun carriage (makes
sense - it carries the gun about), with subsequent extension to
other vehicles. 

-- 
Andy Breen ~    Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales....   
Nieveler's law: "Any USENET thread, if sufficiently prolonged and not
                Godwinated, will eventually turn into a discussion about 
                alcoholic drinks."

Ken Ward wrote:

> "Peter Masson"  wrote in message
> news:dbnqj9$nuc$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>
>> "Sir John Aspinall"  wrote
>>>
>>> Historically, "car" was simply an abbreviation for "carriage" and
>>> I suspect that in this abbreviation "car" is an abbreviation too.
>>>
>> It seems to have been rather the opposite. 'Car' was the original
>> word; 'carry' was derived from 'car', and 'carriage' was derived
>> from 'carry'.
>
>
> Isn't "carriage" a term used mainly for a pulled item while "car"
> is mainly self-propelled?


On roads perhaps, but not on rail, otherwise we wouldn't refer to a
trailer car.
-- 
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In article <1hMDe.74517$G8.47921@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
Richard J.  wrote:

>Ken Ward wrote:
>> "Peter Masson"  wrote in message
>> news:dbnqj9$nuc$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>>
>>> "Sir John Aspinall"  wrote
>>>>
>>>> Historically, "car" was simply an abbreviation for "carriage" and
>>>> I suspect that in this abbreviation "car" is an abbreviation too.
>>>>
>>> It seems to have been rather the opposite. 'Car' was the original
>>> word; 'carry' was derived from 'car', and 'carriage' was derived
>>> from 'carry'.
>>
>>
>> Isn't "carriage" a term used mainly for a pulled item while "car"
>> is mainly self-propelled?
>
>On roads perhaps, but not on rail, otherwise we wouldn't refer to a
>trailer car.


Or motor coach (on road or rail)..

-- 
Andy Breen ~ 	Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
		http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
		"Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)

Andrew Robert Breen schrieb:

> In article <1hMDe.74517$G8.47921@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
> Richard J.  wrote:
> 
>>Ken Ward wrote:
>>
>>>"Peter Masson"  wrote in message
>>>news:dbnqj9$nuc$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>>
>>>>"Sir John Aspinall"  wrote
>>>>
>>>>>Historically, "car" was simply an abbreviation for "carriage" and
>>>>>I suspect that in this abbreviation "car" is an abbreviation too.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It seems to have been rather the opposite. 'Car' was the original
>>>>word; 'carry' was derived from 'car', and 'carriage' was derived
>>>>from 'carry'.
>>>
>>>
>>>Isn't "carriage" a term used mainly for a pulled item while "car"
>>>is mainly self-propelled?
>>
>>On roads perhaps, but not on rail, otherwise we wouldn't refer to a
>>trailer car.
> 
> 
> Or motor coach (on road or rail)..
> 


what if the propulsion is in the tracks (MAGLEV)?

stands "cable car" for the san francisco type of tram and also 2 
vehicles fixed via the cable over the station  and motor on the hill?

thanks for the lesson

G.fried

In article <42dfc3c3$0$19882$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>,
G.fried  wrote:

>Andrew Robert Breen schrieb:
>> In article <1hMDe.74517$G8.47921@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
>> Richard J.  wrote:
>> 
>>>Ken Ward wrote:
>>>
>>>>Isn't "carriage" a term used mainly for a pulled item while "car"
>>>>is mainly self-propelled?
>>>
>>>On roads perhaps, but not on rail, otherwise we wouldn't refer to a
>>>trailer car.
>> 
>> 
>> Or motor coach (on road or rail)..
>> 
>
>what if the propulsion is in the tracks (MAGLEV)?


Then it's technically termed a Boondoggle [1]


>stands "cable car" for the san francisco type of tram and also 2 
>vehicles fixed via the cable over the station  and motor on the hill?


[1] (c) Roger Ford

-- 
Andy Breen ~ 	Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
		http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
		"Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)

Andrew Robert Breen wrote:


( snip impressive piece of information )


But notwithstadning all that, is it not true that the underlying root
word is the same.

One from Latin, and one from old French that is based on the Latin.

French was based on Latin when I did both French and Latin to O-level,
and I don't imagine it has been changed since 1975.


--
Nick

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:13:30 +0200, "G.fried" 
wrote:


>I learned that car is more a self propelled vehicle (in german 
>schienenbus)- is this true


ITYM "Triebwagen".  A Schienenbus is a very specific form of it -
literally a railbus.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.