The photograph at
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article300345.ece claims to
show a coach being removed at Aldgate, though I thought this was
done at Edgware Road and that is what it says at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4698545.stm

Some may like to note that the coach is covered with plastic
sheeting.



-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

David Hansen wrote:

> The photograph at
> http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article300345.ece claims to
> show a coach being removed at Aldgate, though I thought this was
> done at Edgware Road and that is what it says at
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4698545.stm
>
> Some may like to note that the coach is covered with plastic
> sheeting.


i was listening to BBC R5 at 2200hrs last night and their reporter
described said plastic sheeting as being blue in color; and being
craned on to a low loader.

one wonders now if the rest of the train has been towed away by LUL
yet? and where would it be likely to go to for examination /
refurbishment?

once the forensic examinations of the trains have finished insitu,
are the cars at russell square and aldgate likely also to be towed
away promptly as well?

t.

Trevor wrote:

> once the forensic examinations of the trains have finished insitu,
> are the cars at russell square and aldgate likely also to be towed
> away promptly as well?


As opposed to leaving them there?...?

dwb wrote:

> Trevor wrote:
> > once the forensic examinations of the trains have finished insitu,
> > are the cars at russell square and aldgate likely also to be towed
> > away promptly as well?
>
> As opposed to leaving them there?...?


Forgive the question chaps but is there a handy LUL Coach size hole
near the site ? just wondering how it came out of the tube ?

Regards
IM

D6586@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:


> 
> Forgive the question chaps but is there a handy LUL Coach size hole
> near the site ? just wondering how it came out of the tube ?
> 


Edgware Road station is mostly in open cutting.

Charlie

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:45:39 +0100 someone who may be Charlie Hulme
 wrote this:-


>> Forgive the question chaps but is there a handy LUL Coach size hole
>> near the site ? just wondering how it came out of the tube ?
>> 
>
>Edgware Road station is mostly in open cutting.


Aldgate was built over some time ago, but there are open air
stretches nearby.

There are connections between some of the tube lines in various
places, including ISTR Kings Cross, which could be used to get
coaches to places where they may be removed by crane. However, if
they are able to move coaches by rail to such places then presumably
there is no great problem in moving them further by rail.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

"David Hansen"  wrote

>
> There are connections between some of the tube lines in various
> places, including ISTR Kings Cross, which could be used to get
> coaches to places where they may be removed by crane. However, if
> they are able to move coaches by rail to such places then presumably
> there is no great problem in moving them further by rail.
>

The Piccadilly train will have to be moved by rail to at least Arnos Grove
or West Kensington. Although there's a connection between the Piccadilly and
Northern at Kings Cross, and between the Piccadilly and Victoria at Finsbury
Park, these don't really help in getting the train out of the tube.

Peter

Trevor wrote:


>> Some may like to note that the coach is covered with plastic
>> sheeting.
> 
> i was listening to BBC R5 at 2200hrs last night and their
> reporter described said plastic sheeting as being blue in color;
> and being craned on to a low loader.


Is this alt.plastic.sheeting.spotters now?

What's the significance?

-- 
Chris Game

"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the
initiative in creating the Internet." - Al Gore, March 9, 1999

yyOn 20 Jul 2005 08:31:40 -0700, D6586@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:


>
>
>dwb wrote:
>> Trevor wrote:
>> > once the forensic examinations of the trains have finished insitu,
>> > are the cars at russell square and aldgate likely also to be towed
>> > away promptly as well?
>>
>> As opposed to leaving them there?...?
>
>Forgive the question chaps but is there a handy LUL Coach size hole
>near the site ? just wondering how it came out of the tube ?
>

Aldgate and Edgware Road aren't tube stations but sub-surface; there
are plenty of "holes" (i.e. open cuttings as well as the station areas
themselves) in the cut-and-cover formation which would allow hoisting.
AFAIR Edgware Road Circle/H&C/District station has enough room for a
straightforward vertical extraction but there might be slightly more
recent "clutter" above Aldgate. OTOH the Piccadilly Line carriage is
presumably going to come out in pieces or via the nearest (but not
that near) open-air access if it can be prepared for movement without
destroying any unrecovered evidence which remains.

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:20:25 UTC, David Hansen 
 wrote:

: Some may like to note that the coach is covered with plastic
: sheeting.

What's that got to do with anything? 

Not quite the same as getting the bits (of people and train) out of 
the way as quickly as possibly and slapping a bit of clingfilm over 
the scene for a week or two until an investigation can be done without
holding up too many trains.

As a matter of interest, do you think they took too long to do this 
move?

Ian


--

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:59:04 UTC, Chris Game  
wrote:

: Trevor wrote:
: 
: >> Some may like to note that the coach is covered with plastic
: >> sheeting.
: > 
: > i was listening to BBC R5 at 2200hrs last night and their
: > reporter described said plastic sheeting as being blue in color;
: > and being craned on to a low loader.
: 
: Is this alt.plastic.sheeting.spotters now?
: 
: What's the significance?

There's a prominent poster on uk.railway who, after any sort of 
accident with a police investigation, claims that closing lines for 
this sort of thing is outrageous, and that it would be just as 
satisfactory to wrap a bit of plastic sheeting (with slits for the 
rails to poke through) over the scene and wait until it's convenient. 
Slightly to my surprise he hasn't been pushing this on this occasion. 
Or hadn't.

Ian

"Trevor"  wrote in message 
news:1121864010.268016.72170@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

> i was listening to BBC R5 at 2200hrs last night and their reporter
> described said plastic sheeting as being blue in color; and being
> craned on to a low loader.
> one wonders now if the rest of the train has been towed away by LUL
> yet? and where would it be likely to go to for examination /
> refurbishment?
> once the forensic examinations of the trains have finished insitu,
> are the cars at russell square and aldgate likely also to be towed
> away promptly as well?


According to various snippets of info I have picked up from various places, 
the situation is as follows, though beware that this is simply putting 
together a collection of bits, so could well be out of date or plain 
wrong...

My understanding is that some or all of the Edgware Road cars have been 
moved by road to Acton Works - in one of the news reports the cars were said 
to be winched out onto Chapel Street, which runs alongside the station on 
the south side. Presumably to reach this point they must have been shunted a 
short distance along the rails.

The Aldgate train, AIUI, has been moved back into Liverpool Street 
platform - where there are rumours that the roof of the damaged car has been 
cut back. I don't know what the present situation is, but my guess is that 
it has been/will be moved by rail to Acton Works along with the rest of the 
train.

As regards the Picc train, it seems fairly certain the front two cars will 
be cut up on site and removed piecemeal, presumably via Russell Square 
station - at least for the less-heavy bits. Given the damage these are 
reported to have sustained I doubt moving by rail is an option, but it's 
hard to say for sure given the lack of information.

In article <dbmvv3$bdf$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, David Splett
 writes

>"Trevor"  wrote in message 
>news:1121864010.268016.72170@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> i was listening to BBC R5 at 2200hrs last night and their reporter
>> described said plastic sheeting as being blue in color; and being
>> craned on to a low loader.
>> one wonders now if the rest of the train has been towed away by LUL
>> yet? and where would it be likely to go to for examination /
>> refurbishment?
>> once the forensic examinations of the trains have finished insitu,
>> are the cars at russell square and aldgate likely also to be towed
>> away promptly as well?
>
>According to various snippets of info I have picked up from various places, 
>the situation is as follows, though beware that this is simply putting 
>together a collection of bits, so could well be out of date or plain 
>wrong...
>
>My understanding is that some or all of the Edgware Road cars have been 
>moved by road to Acton Works - in one of the news reports the cars were said 
>to be winched out onto Chapel Street, which runs alongside the station on 
>the south side. Presumably to reach this point they must have been shunted a 
>short distance along the rails.
>
>The Aldgate train, AIUI, has been moved back into Liverpool Street 
>platform - where there are rumours that the roof of the damaged car has been 
>cut back. I don't know what the present situation is, but my guess is that 
>it has been/will be moved by rail to Acton Works along with the rest of the 
>train.
>
>As regards the Picc train, it seems fairly certain the front two cars will 
>be cut up on site and removed piecemeal, presumably via Russell Square 
>station - at least for the less-heavy bits. Given the damage these are 
>reported to have sustained I doubt moving by rail is an option, but it's 
>hard to say for sure given the lack of information. 
>
>

As I travelled through Moorgate last night there was a Circle line type
train in platform 2 with two battery locos and two brakevans which
appeared to have come from the Liverpool Street direction - however it
did not appear to be damaged. Presumably, however, they are starting to
clear some of the stranded stock.

-- 
John Alexander, <><

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:59:04 GMT someone who may be Chris Game
 wrote this:-


>What's the significance?


Some claim that things cannot be covered with plastic sheeting to
preserve evidence. This is excuse 1. They persist with this claim
despite being shown that it is incorrect. The other examples I have
given have been regarding non-transport deaths, so now here is an
example with transport related deaths.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4698785.stm is the next step in
this discussion. The first paragraph reads, "A major road was closed
off overnight as a Home Office pathologist examined the scene where
police believe a mother-of-three was murdered." This neatly deals
with excuses 2 and 3. Excuse 2 is that transport routes must be
closed until investigations are complete. Excuse 3 is that
investigations must be undertaken in daylight.

Note that this is a general discussion involving two real examples.
I have not criticised police activities at the scene of the four
explosions in London or the length of time it is taking to re-open
the lines.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:58:50 UTC, David Hansen 
 wrote:

: On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:59:04 GMT someone who may be Chris Game
:  wrote this:-
: 
: >What's the significance?
: 
: Some claim that things cannot be covered with plastic sheeting to
: preserve evidence. 

However, they have already done a great deal of evidence gathering in 
this case, have they not? If they had followed your normal advice 
they'd have removed the train within a couple of hours, slapped 
plastic on the track and waited until the following weekend to do 
anything at all.

You also assume that the plastic sheeting was to protect evidence: 
might it not have been to hide the rather gruesome sight from 
rubberneckers and photographers.

Ian

John wrote:

[lots of stuff snipped]


> >My understanding is that some or all of the Edgware Road cars have been
> >moved by road to Acton Works - in one of the news reports the cars were said
> >to be winched out onto Chapel Street, which runs alongside the station on
> >the south side. Presumably to reach this point they must have been shunted a
> >short distance along the rails.


that would make sense, though if i recall correctly parts of chapel
street are
quite residential so i guess that all their cars have been quietly
asked to park
elsewhere. would one of the usual transport companies like allelys
[sp?] move
these vehicles by road for further investigation?


> >The Aldgate train, AIUI, has been moved back into Liverpool Street
> >platform - where there are rumours that the roof of the damaged car has been
> >cut back. I don't know what the present situation is, but my guess is that
> >it has been/will be moved by rail to Acton Works along with the rest of the
> >train.

> >As regards the Picc train, it seems fairly certain the front two cars will
> >be cut up on site and removed piecemeal, presumably via Russell Square
> >station - at least for the less-heavy bits. Given the damage these are
> >reported to have sustained I doubt moving by rail is an option, but it's
> >hard to say for sure given the lack of information.
> >
> >
> As I travelled through Moorgate last night there was a Circle line type
> train in platform 2 with two battery locos and two brakevans which
> appeared to have come from the Liverpool Street direction - however it
> did not appear to be damaged. Presumably, however, they are starting to
> clear some of the stranded stock.


i did hear somewhere that they thought it might be about three to four
weeks
before the lines at edgware road _might_ reopen but i always thought
that the
russell square reopening would be a much longer affair. maybe if the
stock is
cut-up on site, it can be brought back to russell square station and
taken away
from there by rail.

thanks here for the two guys that posted the above quotes. they were
useful to
read.

t.

Ian Johnston wrote:


>: Trevor wrote:
>: 
>:>> Some may like to note that the coach is covered with plastic
>:>> sheeting.
>:> 
>:> i was listening to BBC R5 at 2200hrs last night and their
>:> reporter described said plastic sheeting as being blue in
>:> color; and being craned on to a low loader.
>: 
>: Is this alt.plastic.sheeting.spotters now?
>: 
>: What's the significance?
> 
> There's a prominent poster on uk.railway who,...


Thanks for the background, but why the emphasis on 'blue'? Who cares
what colour it is? Next we'll be worrying about whether it was
polyethylene or pvc!

-- 
Chris Game

"I don't know why I did it, I don't know why I enjoyed it,
and I don't know why I'll do it again." -- Bart Simpson

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:37:55 UTC, Chris Game  
wrote:

: Thanks for the background, but why the emphasis on 'blue'? Who cares
: what colour it is? Next we'll be worrying about whether it was
: polyethylene or pvc!

You have to realise that it's not just any old plastic sheeting that 
can be used to preserve evidence and human remains for many days, oh 
dear me no. It has to be special Evidence-Prufe (tm) plastic, lovingly
hand crafted for forensic preservation purposes and laid with 
meticulous care and attention to detail. 

Ian

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:37:55 GMT someone who may be Chris Game
 wrote this:-


>Thanks for the background,


It was not quite background, but rather a distortion of previous
discussions.


>but why the emphasis on 'blue'?


I didn't mention the colour of the plastic sheeting before. However,
I have seen white (the little tents), red (over part of the bus
blown up a fortnight ago) and now blue plastic sheeting used by the
police. I have no opinion on the colour, though clear would allow
sunlight to shine through which might not be ideal.


-- 
 David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
 prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

yyOn 21 Jul 2005 10:36:28 GMT, "Ian Johnston"
 wrote:


>On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:58:50 UTC, David Hansen 
> wrote:
>
>: On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:59:04 GMT someone who may be Chris Game
>:  wrote this:-
>: 
>: >What's the significance?
>: 
>: Some claim that things cannot be covered with plastic sheeting to
>: preserve evidence. 
>
>However, they have already done a great deal of evidence gathering in 
>this case, have they not? If they had followed your normal advice 
>they'd have removed the train within a couple of hours, slapped 
>plastic on the track and waited until the following weekend to do 
>anything at all.
>
>You also assume that the plastic sheeting was to protect evidence: 
>might it not have been to hide the rather gruesome sight from 
>rubberneckers and photographers.
>

Apart from hiding things from sensitive souls it will also go a long
way to containing any loose bits which weren't apparent before loading
the vehicle as well as hindering the more desperate souvenir hunters.
The colour is presumably because that is what most modern
tarpaulin-style material comes as, maybe for nothing more special than
cost and production reasons. The coach seems to be en route to
premises similar to those used for aircraft accident investigation
where it will presumably be stripped down for further recovery of
evidence and/or remains without undue contamination as could occur if
it remained at the scene of the explosion.

"Trevor"  wrote in message
news:1121943635.460646.314380@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

>
> that would make sense, though if i recall correctly parts of chapel
> street are
> quite residential so i guess that all their cars have been quietly
> asked to park
> elsewhere. would one of the usual transport companies like allelys
> [sp?] move
> these vehicles by road for further investigation?


There is a Royal Mail (IIRC) yard, adjacent to the station, above the
sidings. Access could probably be gained from there. Most of the area
between Chapel Street and the railway cutting is either yard or commercial,
so I wouldn't imagine that access would be too difficult.

In message <dbmvv3$bdf$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, David Splett 
 writes

>As regards the Picc train, it seems fairly certain the front two cars 
>will be cut up on site and removed piecemeal, presumably via Russell 
>Square station - at least for the less-heavy bits. Given the damage 
>these are reported to have sustained I doubt moving by rail is an 
>option, but it's hard to say for sure given the lack of information.


I've been informed today that the last two cars were set back into Kings 
X westbound platform last night.  They are apparently in a fit state to 
move and will be taken to Acton works tonight.
-- 
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)