This happened on Sunday at Modena station in Italy. A 54-year-old man
attempted to leave a moving train, supposedly when he belatedly realised
that it was not going to stop. According to witnesses, he opened the door
and, before jumping, appeared to be trying to judge the best moment to do
so.

The train was passing through the station at about 75mph. When he hit the
platform his skull cracked open. His clothing became entangled with part of
the carriage, and, trailing a thick streak of blood from his open head
wound, he was dragged 100m before finally becoming disentangled and skidding
to a halt.

Unfortunately, despite the efforts of paramedics, he succumbed to his
injuries some 20 minutes later.

In Italian law, someone has always to take the blame for a fatality[1]. In
this case, it has been decided that the cause was not suicide. The carriage
has been sequestrated by a magistrate, and the person responsible for the
maintainance and safety of the carriage is expected to be charged with
culpable homicide. (Carriages of the type involved, although not fitted with
central locking, are supposed to have a mechanism which prevents the doors
from opening when the carriage is moving above about 3mph.)

Geoff

[1] Magistrates appear to be somewhat creative in how this rule is
interpreted. In the case of the death of racing driver Ayrton Senna, the
prosecution of which still carries a great deal of kudos, succesive
magistrates have repeatedly reopened the file, typically on the excuse of
minutiae of incorrect procedure. On the other hand, less important racing
driver Roland Ratzenberger was killed at the same track on the same weekend,
and no investigation was carried out whatsoever.

Geoffrey Mortimer  wrote:

> [1] Magistrates appear to be somewhat creative in how this rule is
> interpreted. In the case of the death of racing driver Ayrton Senna, the
> prosecution of which still carries a great deal of kudos, succesive
> magistrates have repeatedly reopened the file, typically on the excuse of
> minutiae of incorrect procedure. On the other hand, less important racing
> driver Roland Ratzenberger was killed at the same track on the same weekend,
> and no investigation was carried out whatsoever.
> 


As an aside, it's become "conventional" in Italy for drivers to not
be declared dead at the circuit -- if that happens it then effectively
becomes a crime scene and the Italian justice system starts to grind
into action.  Drivers killed in races are conventionally declared dead
in the ambulance or at the receiving hospital. It makes life a lot easier.

I think this switch took place in the 60s, some time between the fatal
von Trips accident and Rindt's death at Monza.

pete
-- 
pete@fenelon.com "There's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" - HMHB

"Pete Fenelon"  wrote in message 
news:bi8lbd.a5v.ln@fenelon.com...

> Geoffrey Mortimer  wrote:
>> [1] Magistrates appear to be somewhat creative in how this rule is
>> interpreted. In the case of the death of racing driver Ayrton Senna, the
>> prosecution of which still carries a great deal of kudos, succesive
>> magistrates have repeatedly reopened the file, typically on the excuse of
>> minutiae of incorrect procedure. On the other hand, less important racing
>> driver Roland Ratzenberger was killed at the same track on the same 
>> weekend,
>> and no investigation was carried out whatsoever.
>>
>
> As an aside, it's become "conventional" in Italy for drivers to not
> be declared dead at the circuit -- if that happens it then effectively
> becomes a crime scene and the Italian justice system starts to grind
> into action.  Drivers killed in races are conventionally declared dead
> in the ambulance or at the receiving hospital. It makes life a lot easier.
>
> I think this switch took place in the 60s, some time between the fatal
> von Trips accident and Rindt's death at Monza.
>
> pete
> -- 
> pete@fenelon.com "There's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" - HMHB

The same idea applies in France, where death due to an accident at work is 
not counted as a work fatality if it takes place in the ambulance or at 
hospital. If the investigating magistrate does sequester something for 
subsequent investigation, it can be months (or sometimes years) before it is 
released.
Brian

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:03:12 +0200, "Geoffrey Mortimer"
 wrote:


>This happened on Sunday at Modena station in Italy. A 54-year-old man
>attempted to leave a moving train, supposedly when he belatedly realised
>that it was not going to stop. According to witnesses, he opened the door
>and, before jumping, appeared to be trying to judge the best moment to do
>so.

[snip]
I'm sorry that this man is dead and have every sympathy for friends
and relatives left behind, but he does seem like a classic Darwin
Award candidate. If you jump from a 75mph moving train you will die.
Could he perhaps have been drunk?

Best regards, Paul
--
Paul Sherwin Consulting     http://paulsherwin.co.uk

"Paul Sherwin"  wrote in message
news:42de3b71.7519552@news.demon.co.uk...

> On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:03:12 +0200, "Geoffrey Mortimer"
>  wrote:
>
> >This happened on Sunday at Modena station in Italy. A 54-year-old man
> >attempted to leave a moving train, supposedly when he belatedly realised
> >that it was not going to stop. According to witnesses, he opened the door
> >and, before jumping, appeared to be trying to judge the best moment to do
> >so.
> [snip]
> I'm sorry that this man is dead and have every sympathy for friends
> and relatives left behind, but he does seem like a classic Darwin
> Award candidate. If you jump from a 75mph moving train you will die.
> Could he perhaps have been drunk?
>
> Best regards, Paul
> --
> Paul Sherwin Consulting     http://paulsherwin.co.uk


He was an elementary school teacher from Bologna, visiting family in Modena.
In northern Italy it is very much not the done thing to get drunk (IIRC it
is an arrestable offence to be drunk in public), and to do so before
visiting relations would be considered the height of bad manners.

Some people are just staggeringly inept when it comes to technical matters,
I guess ...

"Geoffrey Mortimer"  wrote in message
news:3k6lr1Ft0372U1@individual.net...

> This happened on Sunday at Modena station in Italy. A 54-year-old man
> attempted to leave a moving train, supposedly when he belatedly realised
> that it was not going to stop. According to witnesses, he opened the door
> and, before jumping, appeared to be trying to judge the best moment to do
> so.
>
> The train was passing through the station at about 75mph. When he hit the
> platform his skull cracked open. His clothing became entangled with part of
> the carriage, and, trailing a thick streak of blood from his open head
> wound, he was dragged 100m before finally becoming disentangled and skidding
> to a halt.
>
> Unfortunately, despite the efforts of paramedics, he succumbed to his
> injuries some 20 minutes later.


Was it entirely accurate to say 'his skull cracked open'.   I don't doubt that
such a thing could happen, but the scalp is very liberally fed with blood and
any cut to the head produces a lot of blood.   Head injury cases are often
'covered in blood' but may only have a relatively small superficial cut.  Of
course they may well also have more serious brain injuries.  If his skull really
cracked open I have doubts that he would have survived 20 mins.  (IANAM- I defer
to higher opinion)

Roger

"Roger R" <telstar461703@clara4co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:1121866847.16521.0@lotis.uk.clara.net...

>
> "Geoffrey Mortimer"  wrote in message
> news:3k6lr1Ft0372U1@individual.net...
> > This happened on Sunday at Modena station in Italy. A 54-year-old man
> > attempted to leave a moving train, supposedly when he belatedly realised
> > that it was not going to stop. According to witnesses, he opened the
door
> > and, before jumping, appeared to be trying to judge the best moment to
do
> > so.
> >
> > The train was passing through the station at about 75mph. When he hit
the
> > platform his skull cracked open. His clothing became entangled with part
of
> > the carriage, and, trailing a thick streak of blood from his open head
> > wound, he was dragged 100m before finally becoming disentangled and
skidding
> > to a halt.
> >
> > Unfortunately, despite the efforts of paramedics, he succumbed to his
> > injuries some 20 minutes later.
>
> Was it entirely accurate to say 'his skull cracked open'.   I don't doubt
that
> such a thing could happen, but the scalp is very liberally fed with blood
and
> any cut to the head produces a lot of blood.   Head injury cases are often
> 'covered in blood' but may only have a relatively small superficial cut.
Of
> course they may well also have more serious brain injuries.  If his skull
really
> cracked open I have doubts that he would have survived 20 mins.  (IANAM- I
defer
> to higher opinion)
>
> Roger
>

Sorry, perhaps I got a bit carried away. The newspaper said something like
"extreme cranial trauma". The photo showed a long pile of chalk about 20cm
wide covering the blood stain on the platform.

In message , at 11:20:59 on Wed, 20 Jul 2005, 
Pete Fenelon  remarked:

>As an aside, it's become "conventional" in Italy for drivers to not
>be declared dead at the circuit -- if that happens it then effectively
>becomes a crime scene and the Italian justice system starts to grind
>into action.  Drivers killed in races are conventionally declared dead
>in the ambulance or at the receiving hospital. It makes life a lot easier.
>
>I think this switch took place in the 60s, some time between the fatal
>von Trips accident and Rindt's death at Monza.


This isn't just an Italian thing. Look at the number of reports about 
accidents in the UK, where the victims are "pronounced dead on arrival 
at hospital". It's so much less paperwork than them dying at the scene.
-- 
Roland Perry

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:03:12 +0200, "Geoffrey Mortimer"
 wrote:


>In Italian law, someone has always to take the blame for a fatality[1]. In
>this case, it has been decided that the cause was not suicide. The carriage
>has been sequestrated by a magistrate, and the person responsible for the
>maintainance and safety of the carriage is expected to be charged with
>culpable homicide.


Ridiculous.  I thought our litigious culture was bad...


> (Carriages of the type involved, although not fitted with
>central locking, are supposed to have a mechanism which prevents the doors
>from opening when the carriage is moving above about 3mph.)


They do, however, (just like more or less[1] all British stock which
has automatic or centrally-locked doors) have a release handle above
the door for use in emergency.  I wonder if that had been operated?

[1] I say "more or less" because the only current stock I was aware of
(might be wrong) that didn't was the Merseyrail 50x units, and these
were retrofitted circa 2000.  All other PEP-derived stock appears to
have been retrofitted, and anything later than that appears to have an
emergency release as supplied.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Roland Perry wrote:

> In message , at 11:20:59 on Wed, 20 Jul 2005, 
> Pete Fenelon  remarked:
> 
>> As an aside, it's become "conventional" in Italy for drivers to not
>> be declared dead at the circuit -- if that happens it then effectively
>> becomes a crime scene and the Italian justice system starts to grind
>> into action.  Drivers killed in races are conventionally declared dead
>> in the ambulance or at the receiving hospital. It makes life a lot 
>> easier.
>>
>> I think this switch took place in the 60s, some time between the fatal
>> von Trips accident and Rindt's death at Monza.
> 
> 
> This isn't just an Italian thing. Look at the number of reports about 
> accidents in the UK, where the victims are "pronounced dead on arrival 
> at hospital". It's so much less paperwork than them dying at the scene.


Victims are "pronounced dead on arrival at hospital" because victims are 
carried in ambulances crewed by highly qualified paramedics but no 
doctor; hospitals are full of doctors; and only a doctor can pronounce 
death.
-- 
Bruce Fletcher
Stronsay, Orkney
<www.stronsay.co.uk/claremont>

In message <dbm86r$7un$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, at 
19:21:00 on Wed, 20 Jul 2005, Bruce Fletcher <r1card1an@bt1nternet.c0m> 
remarked:

>>   This isn't just an Italian thing. Look at the number of reports 
>>about  accidents in the UK, where the victims are "pronounced dead on 
>>arrival  at hospital". It's so much less paperwork than them dying at 
>>the scene.
>
>Victims are "pronounced dead on arrival at hospital" because victims 
>are carried in ambulances crewed by highly qualified paramedics but no 
>doctor; hospitals are full of doctors; and only a doctor can pronounce 
>death.


Even if it's rather obvious (eg decapitated) they were dead at the 
scene. Some people think ambulances and paramedics are better employed 
conveying living people to hospital, rather than obviously dead ones.
-- 
Roland Perry

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:57:15 +0100, Roland Perry 
wrote:


>In message , at 11:20:59 on Wed, 20 Jul 2005, 
>Pete Fenelon  remarked:
>>As an aside, it's become "conventional" in Italy for drivers to not
>>be declared dead at the circuit -- if that happens it then effectively
>>becomes a crime scene and the Italian justice system starts to grind
>>into action.  Drivers killed in races are conventionally declared dead
>>in the ambulance or at the receiving hospital. It makes life a lot easier.
>>
>>I think this switch took place in the 60s, some time between the fatal
>>von Trips accident and Rindt's death at Monza.
>
>This isn't just an Italian thing. Look at the number of reports about 
>accidents in the UK, where the victims are "pronounced dead on arrival 
>at hospital". It's so much less paperwork than them dying at the scene.


It's not the paperwork. In the great majority of cases there will have
been no-one at the scene with the legal ability to certify death.
Although modern paramedics are trained far beyond the old practice of
"scoop and run" they are not doctors and cannot sign a death
certificate. Until a person is legally dead they cannot be treated as
a corpse so they must still be conveyed to a qualified person for
certification or in a few cases for successful resuscitation even
though apparently without signs of life.

It's NOT actually necessary for a Dr to confirm death - but to certify the 
cause of death DOES require a Dr's opinion and signature please see 
http://www.gpnotebook.co.uk/cache/-1489698744.htm

Adrian (Dr!!)


"Charles Ellson"  wrote in message 
news:boctd1h9mied2melo8on5ae6vk3343g5s9@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:57:15 +0100, Roland Perry 
> wrote:
>
>>In message , at 11:20:59 on Wed, 20 Jul 2005,
>>Pete Fenelon  remarked:
>>>As an aside, it's become "conventional" in Italy for drivers to not
>>>be declared dead at the circuit -- if that happens it then effectively
>>>becomes a crime scene and the Italian justice system starts to grind
>>>into action.  Drivers killed in races are conventionally declared dead
>>>in the ambulance or at the receiving hospital. It makes life a lot 
>>>easier.
>>>
>>>I think this switch took place in the 60s, some time between the fatal
>>>von Trips accident and Rindt's death at Monza.
>>
>>This isn't just an Italian thing. Look at the number of reports about
>>accidents in the UK, where the victims are "pronounced dead on arrival
>>at hospital". It's so much less paperwork than them dying at the scene.
>
> It's not the paperwork. In the great majority of cases there will have
> been no-one at the scene with the legal ability to certify death.
> Although modern paramedics are trained far beyond the old practice of
> "scoop and run" they are not doctors and cannot sign a death
> certificate. Until a person is legally dead they cannot be treated as
> a corpse so they must still be conveyed to a qualified person for
> certification or in a few cases for successful resuscitation even
> though apparently without signs of life. 

"Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
news:SZh$olTVuq3CFAYs@donald.internetpolicynews.co.uk...


>>
>>Victims are "pronounced dead on arrival at hospital" because victims are 
>>carried in ambulances crewed by highly qualified paramedics but no doctor; 
>>hospitals are full of doctors; and only a doctor can pronounce death.
>
> Even if it's rather obvious (eg decapitated) they were dead at the scene. 
> Some people think ambulances and paramedics are better employed conveying 
> living people to hospital, rather than obviously dead ones.


However leaving the dead ones on the side of the street for the binmen is 
considered callous.

More seriously though there is a legal difference between being obviously 
dead and officially pronounced dead by someone authorised to do so in law.

Dave.

In message <dbmhul$uds$1@domitilla.aioe.org>, at 23:07:09 on Wed, 20 Jul 
2005, Dave Liney  remarked:

>>>Victims are "pronounced dead on arrival at hospital" because victims are
>>>carried in ambulances crewed by highly qualified paramedics but no doctor;
>>>hospitals are full of doctors; and only a doctor can pronounce death.
>>
>> Even if it's rather obvious (eg decapitated) they were dead at the scene.
>> Some people think ambulances and paramedics are better employed conveying
>> living people to hospital, rather than obviously dead ones.
>
>However leaving the dead ones on the side of the street for the binmen is
>considered callous.


Undertakers are more commonly employed than bin-men.


>More seriously though there is a legal difference between being obviously
>dead and officially pronounced dead by someone authorised to do so in law.


So do it at the accident site.
-- 
Roland Perry

"Geoffrey Mortimer"  wrote in message
news:3k73jbFstugiU1@individual.net...

>
> "Roger R" <telstar461703@clara4co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
> news:1121866847.16521.0@lotis.uk.clara.net...
> >
> > "Geoffrey Mortimer"  wrote in message
> > news:3k6lr1Ft0372U1@individual.net...
> > > This happened on Sunday at Modena station in Italy. A 54-year-old man
> > > attempted to leave a moving train, supposedly when he belatedly realised
> > > that it was not going to stop. According to witnesses, he opened the door
> > > and, before jumping, appeared to be trying to judge the best moment to do
> > >so.
> > >
> > > The train was passing through the station at about 75mph. When he hit the
> > > platform his skull cracked open. His clothing became entangled with part
> > > of the carriage, and, trailing a thick streak of blood from his open head
> > > wound, he was dragged 100m before finally becoming disentangled and
> > > skidding to a halt.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, despite the efforts of paramedics, he succumbed to his
> > > injuries some 20 minutes later.
> >
> > Was it entirely accurate to say 'his skull cracked open'.   I don't doubt
> > that such a thing could happen, but the scalp is very liberally fed with
> > blood and any cut to the head produces a lot of blood.   Head injury cases
> > are often 'covered in blood' but may only have a relatively small
> > superficial cut.  Of course they may well also have more serious brain
> > injuries.  If his skull really cracked open I have doubts that he would have
> > survived 20 mins.  (IANAM- I defer to higher opinion)
> >
> > Roger
> >
> Sorry, perhaps I got a bit carried away. The newspaper said something like
> "extreme cranial trauma". The photo showed a long pile of chalk about 20cm
> wide covering the blood stain on the platform.


Thanks for clarifying that point.

Assuming it was not his intention to end his life, I wonder how his perception
that it was safe to jump was formed.   The visual clues he got from the passing
platform must have lead him to think it was slow enough to be safe.

Could there be something in the notion of becoming so accustomed to the speed it
doesn't seem fast anymore, especially if the train or vehicle has slowed down
from some much higher speed.  After driving a motorway at 70 mph for some time,
that can seem 'not very fast' and when pulling off into a service area, 30 mph
seems like
walking pace.   In these circumstances I could imagine some coach passengers
attempting to alight at 30 mph if the vehicle had an open platform.

A train passenger with only the visual clues from a flat open platform tending
to diminish the perception of speed might well be decieved in just the same way
into thinking it was slow enough to jump off.

Roger

"Roger R" <telstar461703@clara4co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:1121949510.73657.0@doris.uk.clara.net...

>
> "Geoffrey Mortimer"  wrote in message
> news:3k73jbFstugiU1@individual.net...
> >
> > "Roger R" <telstar461703@clara4co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:1121866847.16521.0@lotis.uk.clara.net...
> > >
> > > "Geoffrey Mortimer"  wrote in message
> > > news:3k6lr1Ft0372U1@individual.net...
> > > > This happened on Sunday at Modena station in Italy. A 54-year-old
man
> > > > attempted to leave a moving train, supposedly when he belatedly
realised
> > > > that it was not going to stop. According to witnesses, he opened the
door
> > > > and, before jumping, appeared to be trying to judge the best moment
to do
> > > >so.
> > > >
> > > > The train was passing through the station at about 75mph. When he
hit the
> > > > platform his skull cracked open. His clothing became entangled with
part
> > > > of the carriage, and, trailing a thick streak of blood from his open
head
> > > > wound, he was dragged 100m before finally becoming disentangled and
> > > > skidding to a halt.
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, despite the efforts of paramedics, he succumbed to
his
> > > > injuries some 20 minutes later.
> > >
> > > Was it entirely accurate to say 'his skull cracked open'.   I don't
doubt
> > > that such a thing could happen, but the scalp is very liberally fed
with
> > > blood and any cut to the head produces a lot of blood.   Head injury
cases
> > > are often 'covered in blood' but may only have a relatively small
> > > superficial cut.  Of course they may well also have more serious brain
> > > injuries.  If his skull really cracked open I have doubts that he
would have
> > > survived 20 mins.  (IANAM- I defer to higher opinion)
> > >
> > > Roger
> > >
> > Sorry, perhaps I got a bit carried away. The newspaper said something
like
> > "extreme cranial trauma". The photo showed a long pile of chalk about
20cm
> > wide covering the blood stain on the platform.
>
> Thanks for clarifying that point.
>
> Assuming it was not his intention to end his life, I wonder how his
perception
> that it was safe to jump was formed.   The visual clues he got from the
passing
> platform must have lead him to think it was slow enough to be safe.
>
> Could there be something in the notion of becoming so accustomed to the
speed it
> doesn't seem fast anymore, especially if the train or vehicle has slowed
down
> from some much higher speed.  After driving a motorway at 70 mph for some
time,
> that can seem 'not very fast' and when pulling off into a service area, 30
mph
> seems like
> walking pace.   In these circumstances I could imagine some coach
passengers
> attempting to alight at 30 mph if the vehicle had an open platform.
>
> A train passenger with only the visual clues from a flat open platform
tending
> to diminish the perception of speed might well be decieved in just the
same way
> into thinking it was slow enough to jump off.
>
> Roger
>

I also find it very strange that he could have thought it safe to step down.
I wonder if the press reported the line speed limit rather than the speed of
this particular train. Such injuries as described could probably have been
sustained at 30mph when falling onto a hard surface and being dragged along
by the train.

FWIW, where he jumped, there is pretty much just bare platform, with no
buildings. This is an island platform about 5m wide, on the other sid of
which there are three tracks, then the (little used) platform 1 and the main
station building. So the nearest building would have been about 20m away.

Geoff

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:27:46 GMT, "Adrian Clarkson"
 wrote:


>
>
>"Charles Ellson"  wrote in message 
>news:boctd1h9mied2melo8on5ae6vk3343g5s9@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:57:15 +0100, Roland Perry 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>In message , at 11:20:59 on Wed, 20 Jul 2005,
>>>Pete Fenelon  remarked:
>>>>As an aside, it's become "conventional" in Italy for drivers to not
>>>>be declared dead at the circuit -- if that happens it then effectively
>>>>becomes a crime scene and the Italian justice system starts to grind
>>>>into action.  Drivers killed in races are conventionally declared dead
>>>>in the ambulance or at the receiving hospital. It makes life a lot 
>>>>easier.
>>>>
>>>>I think this switch took place in the 60s, some time between the fatal
>>>>von Trips accident and Rindt's death at Monza.
>>>
>>>This isn't just an Italian thing. Look at the number of reports about
>>>accidents in the UK, where the victims are "pronounced dead on arrival
>>>at hospital". It's so much less paperwork than them dying at the scene.
>>
>> It's not the paperwork. In the great majority of cases there will have
>> been no-one at the scene with the legal ability to certify death.
>> Although modern paramedics are trained far beyond the old practice of
>> "scoop and run" they are not doctors and cannot sign a death
>> certificate. Until a person is legally dead they cannot be treated as
>> a corpse so they must still be conveyed to a qualified person for
>> certification or in a few cases for successful resuscitation even
>> though apparently without signs of life. 
>
>It's NOT actually necessary for a Dr to confirm death - but to certify the 
>cause of death DOES require a Dr's opinion and signature please see 
>http://www.gpnotebook.co.uk/cache/-1489698744.htm
>

Have you ever tried to dispose of a corpse without the correct chit ?
It's a lot easier to get shot of a "casualty" even if they are cold,
blue and rancid. ;-)
("Dead? Not us mate, call the coroner.")

"Victims are "pronounced dead on arrival at hospital" because victims
are
carried in ambulances crewed by highly qualified paramedics but no
doctor; hospitals are full of doctors; and only a doctor can pronounce
death."

Certainly in the ambulance service I used to work for, ambulance
technicians and paramedics can pronounce death within a strict
protocol, for example where the person has been decapitated; and
paramedics only can cease a resuscitation attempt after a set time,
again only with strict requirements being met.

The idea was to be able to leave a deceased patient (at home) for the
police and GP to attend, with the ambulance being tied up for no more
than 30 minutes. In theory.

However, the ambulance service has a statutory duty to remove deceased
patients from a public place, whether actually pronounced dead by the
crew or not. This is obviously not the case where the police ask for
the body to be left in situ and will arrange removal at a later time by
undertakers.

Actual certification of death is a different matter, normally done
either by a GP as long as he has seen the patient within 14 days and
they died of a illness he was treating them for, or after post mortem
for sudden deaths.

Geoffrey Mortimer  wrote:

> 
> I also find it very strange that he could have thought it safe to step down.


Having been in a VEP travelling at about 90mph linespeed with the door open,
the suction force is pretty strong.  I doubt it's strong enough to suck
someone out unless you were standing on the step and overbalanced (which
/might/ be what happened in this case), but it should be pretty clear from
the airflow the train is going fast.

Theo