| |
Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
>By Josephine Cumbo
>Published: June 24 2005 15:33 | Last updated: June 24 2005 15:33
>>
Motorists who don't check the small print of their insurance policies
could be in for a nasty shock as insurers take away key elements of their
cover, potentially leaving them unwittingly uninsured.
The government's clampdown on uninsured driving is prompting insurers
to withdraw a long-standing extension, which allows third-party
policyholders to drive vehicles they don't own.
This occurs as insurers also eliminate the 14-day "grace" period from
policies, also prompted by concerns over uninsured driving.
However, a quirk of the new insurance regulation could mean that these
changes will be overlooked by thousands of motorists.
Norwich Union Direct, which insures one in seven cars in the UK, has
become the latest insurer to withdraw its Driving Other Cars extension. Its
competitors are expected to follow suit as the government acts on the
recommendations of an independent report into un-insured driving, said to
add 30 per year to the premiums of honest motorists.
Norwich says the Driving Other Cars extension is contributing to the
problem of uninsured drivers as the cover is often unintentionally misused.
The extension is only intended to apply to emergency situations, but
some younger motorists were using it to drive more powerful cars belonging
to their friends, says Norwich.
This week, the AA said it would consider the issue with the panel of
22 insurers for which it brokers.
Norwich says it is communicating this change, which it has described
as key, through letters to existing policyholders.
However, one Norwich Union Direct policyholder has accused the insurer
of "burying the bad news" in
>a 13-page booklet which came with her renewal proposal.
Peta Rogers of Horsham says she was astounded that Norwich had placed
this vital information about her policy after a lengthier section on changes
to courtesy cars and hire cars.
"It seems to me that an office of your size and standing should have
the courage to risk the loss of business that may ensue from spelling out in
clear and simple terms what you have done," Rogers wrote in a letter to
Norwich.
"Now that small print is not allowed, please don't just bury bad news
in mountains of verbiage. The consequences, to me and others involved, of
finding myself underinsured after a serious accident are just too awful to
contemplate."
Norwich strongly denies that it tried to bury bad news. It said it had
a raft of changes to its policies, including arrangements for courtesy car
and legal cover, to communicate to its thousands of policyholders.
"We can't possibly know what is more important to some customers and
not others," says Liz Kennett, a senior official with Norwich.
"We highlighted in the renewal letter that there had been changes to
the policy and that is why you need to read the booklet which was titled
'Important Notice to Policyholders'.
"I don't see how much more we can possibly do," she adds.
Consumer groups say Rogers' case highlights a quirk of general
insurance regulation, which allows companies to treat new policies and
renewals differently in terms of the small print in their documents.
The Financial Services Authority, which began regulating the sector in
January, requires those selling new cover to provide user-friendly policy
summaries which carry the Key Facts brand.
Documents with the Key Facts logo are supposed to help the consumer
buy the right cover by listing salient points about the policy in a brief
format, reducing the risk of significant exclusions or limitations being
overlooked.
But this demand of "less is more" was dropped for renewals, due to
industry pressure. For the thousands of policyholders renewing each year,
their insurers are only required to send them a statement setting out
changes to their cover from the previous year. As in the case of Rogers, the
small print in these statements can run to a dozen pages.
"One of the dangers is that with such long documents (such as that
Rogers' received), you may miss something which is pertinent to you," says
Mike Naylor, principal researcher with Which?, the consumer rights group.
"Many consumers think they have better protection under regulation,
but the onus is still on them to check their policy."
The Financial Services Consumer Panel, the independent voice for
consumers of financial services, this week said Rogers' case added to their
concerns, already raised with the FSA, about the fair treatment of
customers.
Some within the industry agree that more needs to be done to alert
consumers to current and future changes affecting their policies. This is a
particular issue since general insurance products can be sold without
advice.
"Whether they have cover for driving other cars is not something
people always ask when they buy a policy," says Graeme Trudgill of the
British Insurance Brokers Association.
"But if they are buying without advice, for example directly over the
internet, they need to check if they have this cover. Otherwise they could
find themselves driving uninsured and that is a very serious offence."
Trudgill says this case also highlights the need for policyholders to
check for other significant exclusions. He says some think they are covered
for driving in Europe when they are not, or often don't know their policy
does not cover their commute to and from work.
The FSA says the Key Facts concept is essential to helping consumers
get a fair deal and is scrutinising the industry for poor examples of policy
summaries.
However, some are not convinced that even this
>will prevent consumers missing important changes to their policies,
such as the removal of driving other cars cover.
"Until companies are more upfront about what's in their policies, the
only way you can be sure whether the product you are buying is suitable is
to read the full policy document," says Naylor.
>
>
>
Find this article at:
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/b3627b74-e4bc-11d9-95f3-00000e2511c8,ft_acl=,s01=1.html
Date:Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:59:21 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
i didnt say that i dont think so wrote:
> Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
> >By Josephine Cumbo
> >Published: June 24 2005 15:33 | Last updated: June 24 2005 15:33
> >>
> Motorists who don't check the small print of their insurance policies
> could be in for a nasty shock as insurers take away key elements of their
> cover, potentially leaving them unwittingly uninsured.
>
> The government's clampdown on uninsured driving is prompting insurers
> to withdraw a long-standing extension, which allows third-party
> policyholders to drive vehicles they don't own.
>
So if you're fully comp you will be ok. No bother then.
--
MAlc
Date:1 Jul 2005 07:06:27 -0700
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
In article ,
malcolm.white@ubht.swest.nhs.uk says...
>
>
> i didnt say that i dont think so wrote:
> > Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
> > >By Josephine Cumbo
> > >Published: June 24 2005 15:33 | Last updated: June 24 2005 15:33
> > >>
> > Motorists who don't check the small print of their insurance policies
> > could be in for a nasty shock as insurers take away key elements of their
> > cover, potentially leaving them unwittingly uninsured.
> >
> > The government's clampdown on uninsured driving is prompting insurers
> > to withdraw a long-standing extension, which allows third-party
> > policyholders to drive vehicles they don't own.
> >
>
> So if you're fully comp you will be ok. No bother then.
>
>
Nope, the third party cover is for vehicles you don't own.
You "normally" have to be fully comp to get that.
I think what is being complained about is that they are changing that
addition. It no longer applies to some companies policies. They tell you
there has been a change in big letters, but you need to read all the
pages of small letters to find iut exactley what it is.
--
Carl Robson
Car PC Build starts again. http://smallr.com/rz
Homepage: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com
Date:Fri, 1 Jul 2005 15:19:16 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
"Malc" wrote in message
news:1120226787.756894.7010@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> i didnt say that i dont think so wrote:
> > Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
> > >By Josephine Cumbo
> > >Published: June 24 2005 15:33 | Last updated: June 24 2005 15:33
> > >>
> > Motorists who don't check the small print of their insurance
policies
> > could be in for a nasty shock as insurers take away key elements of
their
> > cover, potentially leaving them unwittingly uninsured.
> >
> > The government's clampdown on uninsured driving is prompting
insurers
> > to withdraw a long-standing extension, which allows third-party
> > policyholders to drive vehicles they don't own.
> >
>
> So if you're fully comp you will be ok. No bother then.
>
> --
> MAlc
>
NOPE read it again, it is saying that the thirdparty cover to drive someone
elses car is going to be removed,
so basically for example,,
,,, if you go to see a car you want to buy, and you want to test drive it
first then you will not be covered , you will have to get in touch with your
insurance company and buy a cover so you can test drive the car before
buying it,,,
i am sure other people can come up with other ways this change will evect
other people...
Date:Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:19:08 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
i didnt say that i dont think so wrote:
> "Malc" wrote in message
> news:1120226787.756894.7010@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > i didnt say that i dont think so wrote:
> > > Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
> > > >By Josephine Cumbo
> > > >Published: June 24 2005 15:33 | Last updated: June 24 2005 15:33
> > > >>
> > > Motorists who don't check the small print of their insurance
> policies
> > > could be in for a nasty shock as insurers take away key elements of
> their
> > > cover, potentially leaving them unwittingly uninsured.
> > >
> > > The government's clampdown on uninsured driving is prompting
> insurers
> > > to withdraw a long-standing extension, which allows third-party
> > > policyholders to drive vehicles they don't own.
> > >
> >
> > So if you're fully comp you will be ok. No bother then.
> >
>
>
> NOPE read it again, it is saying that the thirdparty cover to drive someone
> elses car is going to be removed,
>
Actually it says thirdparty policyholders. I hold a fully comp policy
so I'm a fully comp policyholder. You may well be right I just feel
like peing pedantic this afternoon.
--
Malc
Date:1 Jul 2005 07:39:11 -0700
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
"Sleeker GT Phwoar" wrote in message
news:MPG.1d2f6140bbc3b8f198b0cd@news.individual.net...
> In article ,
> malcolm.white@ubht.swest.nhs.uk says...
>>
>>
>> i didnt say that i dont think so wrote:
>> > Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
>> > >By Josephine Cumbo
>> > >Published: June 24 2005 15:33 | Last updated: June 24 2005 15:33
>> > >>
>> > Motorists who don't check the small print of their insurance
>> > policies
>> > could be in for a nasty shock as insurers take away key elements of
>> > their
>> > cover, potentially leaving them unwittingly uninsured.
>> >
>> > The government's clampdown on uninsured driving is prompting
>> > insurers
>> > to withdraw a long-standing extension, which allows third-party
>> > policyholders to drive vehicles they don't own.
>> >
>>
>> So if you're fully comp you will be ok. No bother then.
>>
>>
> Nope, the third party cover is for vehicles you don't own.
> You "normally" have to be fully comp to get that.
> I think what is being complained about is that they are changing that
> addition. It no longer applies to some companies policies. They tell you
> there has been a change in big letters, but you need to read all the
> pages of small letters to find iut exactley what it is.
And in any case if you have that cover it will say on the policy documents
and schedule. If it doesn't say, you *don't* have it.
I have had third party policies which have it, and fully comp which don't.
It isn't automatic with fully comp by any means.
(Burned for 6 points and 260 by the small print a few years ago - I *read
all of it* now....)
Date:Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:41:09 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
i didnt say that i dont think so wrote on Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:59:21 GMT:
>
> The extension is only intended to apply to emergency situations,
So say so in the policy!
> but some younger motorists were using it to drive more powerful cars
> belonging to their friends, says Norwich.
And? That's entirely legal, isn't it?
>
> "We highlighted in the renewal letter that there had been changes to
> the policy and that is why you need to read the booklet which was titled
> 'Important Notice to Policyholders'.
>
> "I don't see how much more we can possibly do," she adds.
Other than not _removing_ cover under the rather illogical pretence
of reducing the number of drivers driving without cover?
--
David Taylor
Date:Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:21:27 +0000 (UTC)
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:59:21 GMT, "i didnt say that i dont think so"
wrote:
> The government's clampdown on uninsured driving is prompting insurers
>to withdraw a long-standing extension, which allows third-party
>policyholders to drive vehicles they don't own.
....
> Norwich says the Driving Other Cars extension is contributing to the
>problem of uninsured drivers as the cover is often unintentionally misused.
So a good way to tackle the problem of uninsured drivers is... to
create more uninsured drivers, and do it in stealth mode by weasel
words in small print hardly anyone reads fully. Right...
> Trudgill says this case also highlights the need for policyholders to
>check for other significant exclusions. He says some think they are covered
>for driving in Europe when they are not
So the UK isn't in Europe anymore? Thought that 'ooooh no, you need
extra cover for France!' thing had died years ago...
I live in the USA these days, it's much simpler. You insure the car,
not the driver - *anyone* who drives one of my cars, with my
permission, is automatically covered - the cover goes with the car,
not the driver. AFAIK all American polices work like this.
Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
Date:Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:07:03 -0400
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
The message <da3qi7$g3q$1@outcold.yadt.co.uk>
from "David Taylor" contains these words:
> > but some younger motorists were using it to drive more powerful cars
> > belonging to their friends, says Norwich.
> And? That's entirely legal, isn't it?
Yes - that was the problem. It was entirely legal but not fair to the
insurers (poor dears) 'cos they weren't paying a premium in line with
their risk.
So they've removed the priviledge 'cos it was being abused.
--
Skipweasel.
Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."
Date:Fri, 1 Jul 2005 19:17:09 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
"PC Paul" wrote in message
news:9Ccxe.22091$G2.10790@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> And in any case if you have that cover it will say on the policy documents
> and schedule. If it doesn't say, you *don't* have it.
>
> I have had third party policies which have it, and fully comp which don't.
> It isn't automatic with fully comp by any means.
>
I had the odd situation a couple of years ago where I, having passed my
motorbike test, could only ride my bike, but my wife who didn't even have to
take a CBT to ride a moped, could ride any moped. It was the same insurance
company too.
--
Malc
"Your mother can't climb stairs"
Dalek playground taunt
Date:Fri, 01 Jul 2005 20:58:19 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
Guy King wrote on Fri, 1 Jul 2005 19:17:09 +0100:
> The message <da3qi7$g3q$1@outcold.yadt.co.uk>
> from "David Taylor" contains these words:
>
>> > but some younger motorists were using it to drive more powerful cars
>> > belonging to their friends, says Norwich.
>
>> And? That's entirely legal, isn't it?
>
> Yes - that was the problem. It was entirely legal but not fair to the
> insurers (poor dears) 'cos they weren't paying a premium in line with
> their risk.
>
> So they've removed the priviledge 'cos it was being abused.
And claimed it had something to do with reducing the numbers of
drivers driving without insurance, which is obvious bollocks.
--
David Taylor
Date:Fri, 1 Jul 2005 21:50:48 +0000 (UTC)
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
The message <da4dro$lpr$2@outcold.yadt.co.uk>
from "David Taylor" contains these words:
> > So they've removed the priviledge 'cos it was being abused.
> And claimed it had something to do with reducing the numbers of
> drivers driving without insurance, which is obvious bollocks.
Clearly.
--
Skipweasel.
Ivor Cutler - "Never knowingly understood."
Date:Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:12:43 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
Sleeker GT Phwoar wrote:
>>
>>
>
> Nope, the third party cover is for vehicles you don't own.
> You "normally" have to be fully comp to get that.
> I think what is being complained about is that they are changing that
> addition. It no longer applies to some companies policies. They tell you
So the real thing is that we now need a list so we know what company
does what.
Date:Sun, 03 Jul 2005 10:14:02 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
Mike Ross wrote:
>
> I live in the USA these days, it's much simpler. You insure the car,
> not the driver - *anyone* who drives one of my cars, with my
> permission, is automatically covered - the cover goes with the car,
> not the driver. AFAIK all American polices work like this.
>
That is *fantastic*
Is it relatively more expensive though to have this?
Date:Sun, 03 Jul 2005 10:16:04 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
On 03/07/2005 10:16 T. wrote:
> Mike Ross wrote:
>>
>> I live in the USA these days, it's much simpler. You insure the car,
>> not the driver - *anyone* who drives one of my cars, with my
>> permission, is automatically covered - the cover goes with the car,
>> not the driver. AFAIK all American polices work like this.
>>
>
> That is *fantastic*
>
ISTR motorcycle policies being like that (I'm going back over 25 years
now) - at least some of them. IIRC Norwich Union used to do it.
> Is it relatively more expensive though to have this?
I would think so. I have read Americans complaining about high insurance
premiums - although that may be more due to the litigation-happy nature
over there.
Although I can see the benefit of such a policy, I reckon the premiums
would be astronomical over here. Plus the insurance companies would
doubtless put lots of restrictions on them, like minimum age, maximum
number of points on licence etc. which would put the onus on the
policyholder to ensure that the driver would be insured.
Parish
Date:Sun, 03 Jul 2005 10:45:02 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
In article <42c7ac31$0$2047$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, T. says...
> Sleeker GT Phwoar wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Nope, the third party cover is for vehicles you don't own.
> > You "normally" have to be fully comp to get that.
> > I think what is being complained about is that they are changing that
> > addition. It no longer applies to some companies policies. They tell you
>
> So the real thing is that we now need a list so we know what company
> does what.
>
Or even read your policy.
--
Conor
-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)
Date:Sun, 3 Jul 2005 12:21:24 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
In article <9Ccxe.22091$G2.10790@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, me@home.com
says...
> And in any case if you have that cover it will say on the policy documents
> and schedule. If it doesn't say, you *don't* have it.
>
> I have had third party policies which have it, and fully comp which don't..
> It isn't automatic with fully comp by any means.
>
> (Burned for 6 points and £260 by the small print a few years ago - I *read
> all of it* now....)
>
>
Oh agreed.
With my current insurer, I have basic 3rd party cover on any car not
owned by me, with the owner having their own insurance, and driven with
their permission.
But and here is the bonus, if my car is in getting repair/MOT/Service,
my insurance actually covers me for a car loaned to me by the
motortrade, at full comprehensive cover. I didn't believe it could be
that good, so I phoned (twice) and spoke to two different phone monkeys,
and they confirmed it. I showed it to garage who would hav my car for a
week, and they were happy it would cover their courtesy car while it was
away for a week.
--
Carl Robson
Car PC Build starts again. http://smallr.com/rz
Homepage: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com
Date:Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:21:22 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
"Sleeker GT Phwoar" wrote in message
news:MPG.1d331dfbf5a8a8398b0d7@news.individual.net...
> With my current insurer, I have basic 3rd party cover on any car not
> owned by me, with the owner having their own insurance, and driven with
> their permission.
Hmm. Nowhere on my policy does it say the other car has to be insured by
someone else...
Curious.
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 10:38:31 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
>> With my current insurer, I have basic 3rd party cover on any car not
>> owned by me, with the owner having their own insurance, and driven with
>> their permission.
>
> Hmm. Nowhere on my policy does it say the other car has to be insured by
> someone else...
>
> Curious.
Nor has it on any policy I've ever had with the 3rd party extension.
At the risk of reopening a big can of worms, I can't see why it needs to if
the car is never parked on a public road. Obviously a car needs to be
insured to be left on a public road (in case the handbrake fails, and it
rolls into another car, person etc), but what about the following scenario:
Person A borrows person B's car and crashes it. Person B has their car
insured just for them to drive, and person A is covered under the "3rd party
on any car not belonging to the policyholder". The claim arising from the
accident would be on person A's policy, as it was them driving it, and they
wouldn't have been covered by person B (the car owner)'s policy, so it's the
only possibly policy that could cover it.
So there's no real need for insurance companies to insist that a borrowed
vehicle being driven on the 3rd party extension is insured in its own right,
unless it's parked on a public road. So maybe they should reinforce this
fact by mentioning "please be aware that it is an endorsable offence under
the Road Traffic Act to leave a car that is uninsured in its own right on a
public highway". But then again, does it need to be insured in its own
right in order to sit on a road? Is the person borrowing the car
technically still "in charge" of it once it's been parked and locked up?
Basically I can't see how, with the letter of the law as it stands, it
should be illegal to drive a friend's car on the 3rd party extension, even
if that car isn't insured in its own right, if steps are taken to avoid
leaving it unattended on a public road (quite easy if journeys are planned).
Though I can fully see why a lot of insurance companies want to stop this
facility, as it has *massive* potential for abuse.
Peter
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 10:55:28 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
On 04/07/2005 11:38 PC Paul wrote:
> "Sleeker GT Phwoar" wrote in message
> news:MPG.1d331dfbf5a8a8398b0d7@news.individual.net...
>> With my current insurer, I have basic 3rd party cover on any car not
>> owned by me, with the owner having their own insurance, and driven with
>> their permission.
>
> Hmm. Nowhere on my policy does it say the other car has to be insured by
> someone else...
>
Mine neither - I'm now wondering if it might be an amendment to the
original policy (I've been with the same insurance company for 10 years).
> Curious.
>
I'm concerned. When I got my current car I sold my old one privately
and, as it was no longer insured, I parked it on the local pub car park.
The two people that came to test drive it both brought their insurance
certificates along (at my insistence) and in both cases it said
something along the lines of "The policyholder may also drive a vehicle
not belonging to them and not hired to them under a hire purchase
agreement" - same as mine - so now I'm wondering if they were really
insured?
Parish
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 11:58:54 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
On 04/07/2005 11:55 AstraVanMan wrote:
>>> With my current insurer, I have basic 3rd party cover on any car not
>>> owned by me, with the owner having their own insurance, and driven with
>>> their permission.
>>
>> Hmm. Nowhere on my policy does it say the other car has to be insured by
>> someone else...
>>
>> Curious.
>
> Nor has it on any policy I've ever had with the 3rd party extension.
>
> At the risk of reopening a big can of worms, I can't see why it needs to if
> the car is never parked on a public road. Obviously a car needs to be
> insured to be left on a public road (in case the handbrake fails, and it
> rolls into another car, person etc), but what about the following scenario:
>
> Person A borrows person B's car and crashes it. Person B has their car
> insured just for them to drive, and person A is covered under the "3rd party
> on any car not belonging to the policyholder". The claim arising from the
> accident would be on person A's policy, as it was them driving it, and they
> wouldn't have been covered by person B (the car owner)'s policy, so it's the
> only possibly policy that could cover it.
>
> So there's no real need for insurance companies to insist that a borrowed
> vehicle being driven on the 3rd party extension is insured in its own right,
> unless it's parked on a public road. So maybe they should reinforce this
> fact by mentioning "please be aware that it is an endorsable offence under
> the Road Traffic Act to leave a car that is uninsured in its own right on a
> public highway".
That's how I see it, and I agree that it is logical and sensible.
> But then again, does it need to be insured in its own
> right in order to sit on a road? Is the person borrowing the car
> technically still "in charge" of it once it's been parked and locked up?
>
I asked a Police Officer friend of mine that once and his explanation
was that it had to be insured in its own right in that situation because
when a car is parked (on the public road) it is the responsibility of
the owner not the driver, e.g. if it was parked illegally and was
ticketed the authorities would prosecute the owner.
So, assuming that is fact, rather than just his interpretation, then if
person B in your example parked the car without the handbrake on and it
rolled away causing an accident then person B's insurers would not
accept liability.
Parish
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:11:12 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
"Parish" wrote in message
news:42c91882$0$2047$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
> On 04/07/2005 11:55 AstraVanMan wrote:
>
> >>> With my current insurer, I have basic 3rd party cover on any car not
> >>> owned by me, with the owner having their own insurance, and driven
with
> >>> their permission.
> >>
> >> Hmm. Nowhere on my policy does it say the other car has to be insured
by
> >> someone else...
> >>
> >> Curious.
> >
> > Nor has it on any policy I've ever had with the 3rd party extension.
> >
> > At the risk of reopening a big can of worms, I can't see why it needs to
if
> > the car is never parked on a public road. Obviously a car needs to be
> > insured to be left on a public road (in case the handbrake fails, and it
> > rolls into another car, person etc), but what about the following
scenario:
> >
> > Person A borrows person B's car and crashes it. Person B has their car
> > insured just for them to drive, and person A is covered under the "3rd
party
> > on any car not belonging to the policyholder". The claim arising from
the
> > accident would be on person A's policy, as it was them driving it, and
they
> > wouldn't have been covered by person B (the car owner)'s policy, so it's
the
> > only possibly policy that could cover it.
> >
> > So there's no real need for insurance companies to insist that a
borrowed
> > vehicle being driven on the 3rd party extension is insured in its own
right,
> > unless it's parked on a public road. So maybe they should reinforce
this
> > fact by mentioning "please be aware that it is an endorsable offence
under
> > the Road Traffic Act to leave a car that is uninsured in its own right
on a
> > public highway".
>
> That's how I see it, and I agree that it is logical and sensible.
>
> > But then again, does it need to be insured in its own
> > right in order to sit on a road? Is the person borrowing the car
> > technically still "in charge" of it once it's been parked and locked up?
> >
>
> I asked a Police Officer friend of mine that once and his explanation
> was that it had to be insured in its own right in that situation because
> when a car is parked (on the public road) it is the responsibility of
> the owner not the driver, e.g. if it was parked illegally and was
> ticketed the authorities would prosecute the owner.
>
> So, assuming that is fact, rather than just his interpretation, then if
> person B in your example parked the car without the handbrake on and it
> rolled away causing an accident then person B's insurers would not
> accept liability.
>
> Parish
>
crazy init ?? you are the driver but if there is an accident because of the
way you parked the owner gets the bullet,,,, so why do the driver need
insurance ;0)
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 11:20:16 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
>> I asked a Police Officer friend of mine that once and his explanation
>> was that it had to be insured in its own right in that situation because
>> when a car is parked (on the public road) it is the responsibility of
>> the owner not the driver, e.g. if it was parked illegally and was
>> ticketed the authorities would prosecute the owner.
>>
>> So, assuming that is fact, rather than just his interpretation, then if
>> person B in your example parked the car without the handbrake on and it
>> rolled away causing an accident then person B's insurers would not
>> accept liability.
>>
> crazy init ?? you are the driver but if there is an accident because of
> the
> way you parked the owner gets the bullet,,,, so why do the driver need
> insurance ;0)
Because he/she might not be insured to drive it through the owner's
insurance.
Peter
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 11:20:21 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
>> But then again, does it need to be insured in its own right in order to
>> sit on a road? Is the person borrowing the car technically still "in
>> charge" of it once it's been parked and locked up?
>
> I asked a Police Officer friend of mine that once and his explanation was
> that it had to be insured in its own right in that situation because when
> a car is parked (on the public road) it is the responsibility of the owner
> not the driver, e.g. if it was parked illegally and was ticketed the
> authorities would prosecute the owner.
That shouldn't be the case as far as parking tickets go. I had one from the
local council for a car I'd lent to a friend. I just wrote to them (as per
the letter) with the details of the driver of the car at the time, as it
wasn't me. But then, parking tickets are a completely different kettle of
fish to driving offences.
> So, assuming that is fact, rather than just his interpretation, then if
> person B in your example parked the car without the handbrake on and it
> rolled away causing an accident then person B's insurers would not accept
> liability.
I know what you mean, but you've got person B confused with person A!
Basically, all they need to do is to be selective about who they give the
"3rd party on any car" entitlement to - rather than just give it on all
fully comp policies, or to all drivers over 21/25/whatever, they should
assess it on an individual basis, and perhaps only give it to drivers with 3
points or less, and with no claims in the last 5 years, or something like
that.
Then they could quite simply have things as before, and have traffic wardens
somehow checking that cars are insured by doing ANPR-style checks on all
cars parked on a public road. Mind you, that would be a major headache for
traffic wardens. They could just leave it to the traffic cops, who would
pull over cars not down as being insured, to check them out.
Peter
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 11:22:18 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
On 04/07/2005 12:20 i didnt say that i dont think so wrote:
> "Parish" wrote in message
> news:42c91882$0$2047$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
>> On 04/07/2005 11:55 AstraVanMan wrote:
>>
>> >>> With my current insurer, I have basic 3rd party cover on any car not
>> >>> owned by me, with the owner having their own insurance, and driven
> with
>> >>> their permission.
>> >>
>> >> Hmm. Nowhere on my policy does it say the other car has to be insured
> by
>> >> someone else...
>> >>
>> >> Curious.
>> >
>> > Nor has it on any policy I've ever had with the 3rd party extension.
>> >
>> > At the risk of reopening a big can of worms, I can't see why it needs to
> if
>> > the car is never parked on a public road. Obviously a car needs to be
>> > insured to be left on a public road (in case the handbrake fails, and it
>> > rolls into another car, person etc), but what about the following
> scenario:
>> >
>> > Person A borrows person B's car and crashes it. Person B has their car
>> > insured just for them to drive, and person A is covered under the "3rd
> party
>> > on any car not belonging to the policyholder". The claim arising from
> the
>> > accident would be on person A's policy, as it was them driving it, and
> they
>> > wouldn't have been covered by person B (the car owner)'s policy, so it's
> the
>> > only possibly policy that could cover it.
>> >
>> > So there's no real need for insurance companies to insist that a
> borrowed
>> > vehicle being driven on the 3rd party extension is insured in its own
> right,
>> > unless it's parked on a public road. So maybe they should reinforce
> this
>> > fact by mentioning "please be aware that it is an endorsable offence
> under
>> > the Road Traffic Act to leave a car that is uninsured in its own right
> on a
>> > public highway".
>>
>> That's how I see it, and I agree that it is logical and sensible.
>>
>> > But then again, does it need to be insured in its own
>> > right in order to sit on a road? Is the person borrowing the car
>> > technically still "in charge" of it once it's been parked and locked up?
>> >
>>
>> I asked a Police Officer friend of mine that once and his explanation
>> was that it had to be insured in its own right in that situation because
>> when a car is parked (on the public road) it is the responsibility of
>> the owner not the driver, e.g. if it was parked illegally and was
>> ticketed the authorities would prosecute the owner.
>>
>> So, assuming that is fact, rather than just his interpretation, then if
>> person B in your example parked the car without the handbrake on and it
>> rolled away causing an accident then person B's insurers would not
>> accept liability.
>>
>> Parish
>>
> crazy init ?? you are the driver but if there is an accident because of the
> way you parked the owner gets the bullet,,,, so why do the driver need
> insurance ;0)
>
>
Of course there is a big difference to the way the Police/law views a
situation and the way insurance companies view their liability.
I can think of a grey area though - you are driving your mate's car
(which _is_ insured in it's own right) on the 3rd party extension on
_your_ insurance. You pull up a the side of the road (where parking is
permitted) in order to go and buy a paper. You've applied the handbrake
but the engine is still running, when a vehicle approaching from behind
clips the back of your car and pushes it into the car in front, but
drives off and you don't get it's number. Which insurance company os
liable? You can bet that yours would say the vehicle was parked so
therefore the owner's was liable, and his would say that you were
driving so it's yours is liable. Imagine if it involved serious personal
injury, e.g. the driver in front was getting something out of his boot
and had both his legs badly smashed, where the claim could run into
serious money.
OK, so the person that collided with your car is liable but, if they
can't be traced, I believe (though IANAL) that the owner of the vehicle
that yours hit could claim off you, even though the accident wasn't your
fault.
Parish
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:37:58 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
> OK, so the person that collided with your car is liable but, if they can't
> be traced, I believe (though IANAL) that the owner of the vehicle that
> yours hit could claim off you, even though the accident wasn't your fault.
I've got a funny feeling that the owner of the car can't be considered as a
third party in a situation like this - only other parties directly involved
in the accident.
Peter
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 11:36:18 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
In article <42c915a0$0$2036$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>,
Parish says...
> I'm concerned. When I got my current car I sold my old one privately
> and, as it was no longer insured, I parked it on the local pub car park.
Oh dear. It still needed to be insured as it was parked in a place
accessible to the public.
--
Conor
-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)
Date:Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:39:04 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
On 04/07/2005 12:22 AstraVanMan wrote:
>>> But then again, does it need to be insured in its own right in order to
>>> sit on a road? Is the person borrowing the car technically still "in
>>> charge" of it once it's been parked and locked up?
>>
>> I asked a Police Officer friend of mine that once and his explanation was
>> that it had to be insured in its own right in that situation because when
>> a car is parked (on the public road) it is the responsibility of the owner
>> not the driver, e.g. if it was parked illegally and was ticketed the
>> authorities would prosecute the owner.
>
> That shouldn't be the case as far as parking tickets go. I had one from the
> local council for a car I'd lent to a friend. I just wrote to them (as per
> the letter) with the details of the driver of the car at the time, as it
> wasn't me.
But I'll bet that if the mate you grassed up :-) had said that he wasn't
driving, they would be after you - no way they are going to miss out in
the revenue - so you'd be in the situation of having to prove your
innocence.
> But then, parking tickets are a completely different kettle of
> fish to driving offences.
>
Indeed, but that's why the situation, especially as far as your
insurance company is concerned, is unambiguous.
>> So, assuming that is fact, rather than just his interpretation, then if
>> person B in your example parked the car without the handbrake on and it
>> rolled away causing an accident then person B's insurers would not accept
>> liability.
>
> I know what you mean, but you've got person B confused with person A!
>
Duh!
> Basically, all they need to do is to be selective about who they give the
> "3rd party on any car" entitlement to - rather than just give it on all
> fully comp policies, or to all drivers over 21/25/whatever, they should
> assess it on an individual basis, and perhaps only give it to drivers with 3
> points or less, and with no claims in the last 5 years, or something like
> that.
>
Fair enough, but if it is a condition that the vehicle must be insured
in it's own right then that should be included in the "The Policyholder
who may also drive...." clause on the *certificate*.
Come to think of it, surely they *must* have to put it on the
certificate as that is the only insurance doc the Police want to see so,
if they do require the vehicle to be insured in it's own right and it
doesn't state that on the certificate then you could satisfy the Police
that you are insured when, in fact, you aren't - although maybe in that
situation the Police would want to see both certificates (never been in
that situation).
> Then they could quite simply have things as before, and have traffic wardens
> somehow checking that cars are insured by doing ANPR-style checks on all
> cars parked on a public road. Mind you, that would be a major headache for
> traffic wardens. They could just leave it to the traffic cops, who would
> pull over cars not down as being insured, to check them out.
>
Exactly which traffic cops would that be then? There aren't any left
once they've manned all the talivans ;-) Cynical? Who? Moi?
Parish
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:53:37 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
On 04/07/2005 12:39 Conor wrote:
> In article <42c915a0$0$2036$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>,
> Parish says...
>
>> I'm concerned. When I got my current car I sold my old one privately
>> and, as it was no longer insured, I parked it on the local pub car park.
>
> Oh dear. It still needed to be insured as it was parked in a place
> accessible to the public.
>
>
3rd party insurance is only required on the public highway, although I
agree, it would be a good idea to have it on private land too. Don't
know whether any insurance companies still do it, but you used to be
able to get "Road Traffic Act only" cover - 3rd party, but only on the
public highway, i.e. places subject to the RTA, which was cheaper than
3rd party only - 25+ years ago a mate of mine with an appalling driving
record used to have it as it was the only insurance he could afford.
Parish
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:58:20 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
"AstraVanMan" wrote in message
news:AA8ye.22329$Ar5.17321@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>
> So there's no real need for insurance companies to insist that a borrowed
> vehicle being driven on the 3rd party extension is insured in its own
right,
> unless it's parked on a public road. So maybe they should reinforce this
> fact by mentioning "please be aware that it is an endorsable offence under
> the Road Traffic Act to leave a car that is uninsured in its own right on
a
> public highway". But then again, does it need to be insured in its own
> right in order to sit on a road? Is the person borrowing the car
> technically still "in charge" of it once it's been parked and locked up?
>
It's the registered keeper who will have to produce documents (and/or name
another party) if an unattended vehicle has has been left in a state such
that an offence has been committed. Thus, I would have thought that
responsibility for insuring an unattended car lies with the registered
keeper.
D A Stocks
Date:Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:03:36 -0000
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
>> That shouldn't be the case as far as parking tickets go. I had one from
>> the local council for a car I'd lent to a friend. I just wrote to them
>> (as per the letter) with the details of the driver of the car at the
>> time, as it wasn't me.
>
> But I'll bet that if the mate you grassed up :-) had said that he wasn't
> driving, they would be after you - no way they are going to miss out in
> the revenue - so you'd be in the situation of having to prove your
> innocence.
Conveniently enough, this situation should be ok. The letter was dated
around 8 days before my mate and his wife emigrated to the USA. The letter
gave me 14 days to reply. Everyone's happy. ;-)
>> But then, parking tickets are a completely different kettle of fish to
>> driving offences.
>
> Indeed, but that's why the situation, especially as far as your insurance
> company is concerned, is unambiguous.
> Fair enough, but if it is a condition that the vehicle must be insured in
> it's own right then that should be included in the "The Policyholder who
> may also drive...." clause on the *certificate*.
>
> Come to think of it, surely they *must* have to put it on the certificate
> as that is the only insurance doc the Police want to see so, if they do
> require the vehicle to be insured in it's own right and it doesn't state
> that on the certificate then you could satisfy the Police that you are
> insured when, in fact, you aren't - although maybe in that situation the
> Police would want to see both certificates (never been in that situation).
Precisely. I was just about to say that before reading that next paragraph,
where you said it. If this is a stipulation of this sort of cover, and it's
not on the certificate, and the car was being driven *without* the vehicle
being insured in its own right, then it would be being driven uninsured, and
the driver would deserve the appropriate punishment. But if the police
don't have that information to hand, then as far as they're concerned, the
driver's done nothing wrong.
>> Then they could quite simply have things as before, and have traffic
>> wardens somehow checking that cars are insured by doing ANPR-style checks
>> on all cars parked on a public road. Mind you, that would be a major
>> headache for traffic wardens. They could just leave it to the traffic
>> cops, who would pull over cars not down as being insured, to check them
>> out.
>
> Exactly which traffic cops would that be then? There aren't any left once
> they've manned all the talivans ;-) Cynical? Who? Moi?
The ones on Traffic Cops on the telly. Surely that's a realistic picture of
the amount of traffic cops out on the road, doing the job they should be
doing, isn't it? :-)
Peter
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:03:04 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
>> So there's no real need for insurance companies to insist that a borrowed
>> vehicle being driven on the 3rd party extension is insured in its own
>> right,
>> unless it's parked on a public road. So maybe they should reinforce this
>> fact by mentioning "please be aware that it is an endorsable offence
>> under
>> the Road Traffic Act to leave a car that is uninsured in its own right on
>> a
>> public highway". But then again, does it need to be insured in its own
>> right in order to sit on a road? Is the person borrowing the car
>> technically still "in charge" of it once it's been parked and locked up?
>>
> It's the registered keeper who will have to produce documents (and/or name
> another party) if an unattended vehicle has has been left in a state such
> that an offence has been committed. Thus, I would have thought that
> responsibility for insuring an unattended car lies with the registered
> keeper.
Aye, true, but it would only ever come to anything if it caused an accident,
and if it was someone borrowing it, chances are they'd be nearby and the
police would catch up with them. Unless they did a runner, that is.
Peter
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:09:14 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
On 04/07/2005 13:03 AstraVanMan wrote:
>>> That shouldn't be the case as far as parking tickets go. I had one from
>>> the local council for a car I'd lent to a friend. I just wrote to them
>>> (as per the letter) with the details of the driver of the car at the
>>> time, as it wasn't me.
>>
>> But I'll bet that if the mate you grassed up :-) had said that he wasn't
>> driving, they would be after you - no way they are going to miss out in
>> the revenue - so you'd be in the situation of having to prove your
>> innocence.
>
> Conveniently enough, this situation should be ok. The letter was dated
> around 8 days before my mate and his wife emigrated to the USA. The letter
> gave me 14 days to reply. Everyone's happy. ;-)
>
ROFL! although given the obsession with persecuting motorists these
days, are you sure that they haven't started extradition proceedings? :-)
[snip]
>> Exactly which traffic cops would that be then? There aren't any left once
>> they've manned all the talivans ;-) Cynical? Who? Moi?
>
> The ones on Traffic Cops on the telly. Surely that's a realistic picture of
> the amount of traffic cops out on the road, doing the job they should be
> doing, isn't it? :-)
>
I bet you think that the Rovers Return and the Queen Vic are real pubs,
don't you ;-)
Parish
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:18:19 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
On 04/07/2005 14:03 David A Stocks wrote:
> "AstraVanMan" wrote in message
> news:AA8ye.22329$Ar5.17321@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>>
>> So there's no real need for insurance companies to insist that a borrowed
>> vehicle being driven on the 3rd party extension is insured in its own
> right,
>> unless it's parked on a public road. So maybe they should reinforce this
>> fact by mentioning "please be aware that it is an endorsable offence under
>> the Road Traffic Act to leave a car that is uninsured in its own right on
> a
>> public highway". But then again, does it need to be insured in its own
>> right in order to sit on a road? Is the person borrowing the car
>> technically still "in charge" of it once it's been parked and locked up?
>>
> It's the registered keeper who will have to produce documents (and/or name
> another party) if an unattended vehicle has has been left in a state such
> that an offence has been committed. Thus, I would have thought that
> responsibility for insuring an unattended car lies with the registered
> keeper.
>
OK, I've 'phoned my insurance company, Fortis (I rang them, not the
broker), and asked the question with respect to _my_ fully comp. policy.
I am covered 3rd party to drive another vehicle, with the owner's
permission, even if the the vehicle is not insured in it's own right.
However, if I park the vehicle on the public highway then I am not
insured and the responsibility for 3rd party cover falls on the legal owner.
Of course _your_ insurance company may have different conditions.
Parish
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 14:11:57 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
"Parish" wrote in message
news:42c9283d$0$41896$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
> On 04/07/2005 13:03 AstraVanMan wrote:
> I bet you think that the Rovers Return and the Queen Vic are real pubs,
> don't you ;-)
>
> Parish
You mean to tell me they are not??
well that explains why their larger tasts like cold tea ;0)
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:28:50 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
"Parish" wrote in message
news:42c934cf$0$2046$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
> OK, I've 'phoned my insurance company, Fortis (I rang them, not the
> broker), and asked the question with respect to _my_ fully comp. policy.
>
> I am covered 3rd party to drive another vehicle, with the owner's
> permission, even if the the vehicle is not insured in it's own right.
>
> However, if I park the vehicle on the public highway then I am not insured
> and the responsibility for 3rd party cover falls on the legal owner.
>
> Of course _your_ insurance company may have different conditions.
>
Lucky you. I asked mine a few years ago the same question. The teledroid on
the other end said they 'thought' it did have to be insured in it's own
right, but when I pressed them about where it said it on the policy they
weren't sure if it did. Didn't seem to have any way to find out either, even
though I pressed quite hard.
I changed company next time round anyway (and most times) so who knows
now...
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 14:25:17 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
In article <42c9238e$0$41904$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>,
Parish says...
> On 04/07/2005 12:39 Conor wrote:
>
> > In article <42c915a0$0$2036$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>,
> > Parish says...
> >
> >> I'm concerned. When I got my current car I sold my old one privately
> >> and, as it was no longer insured, I parked it on the local pub car park.
> >
> > Oh dear. It still needed to be insured as it was parked in a place
> > accessible to the public.
> >
> >
>
> 3rd party insurance is only required on the public highway, although I
> agree, it would be a good idea to have it on private land too.
No, 3rd party insurance is a requirement anywhere the public have
access to such as supermarket car parks.
--
Conor
-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)
Date:Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:46:03 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
On 04/07/2005 15:25 PC Paul wrote:
> "Parish" wrote in message
> news:42c934cf$0$2046$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
>
>> OK, I've 'phoned my insurance company, Fortis (I rang them, not the
>> broker), and asked the question with respect to _my_ fully comp. policy.
>>
>> I am covered 3rd party to drive another vehicle, with the owner's
>> permission, even if the the vehicle is not insured in it's own right.
>>
>> However, if I park the vehicle on the public highway then I am not insured
>> and the responsibility for 3rd party cover falls on the legal owner.
>>
>> Of course _your_ insurance company may have different conditions.
>>
>
> Lucky you. I asked mine a few years ago the same question. The teledroid on
> the other end said they 'thought' it did have to be insured in it's own
> right, but when I pressed them about where it said it on the policy they
> weren't sure if it did. Didn't seem to have any way to find out either, even
> though I pressed quite hard.
>
> I changed company next time round anyway (and most times) so who knows
> now...
Wise move. The droid I spoke to put me on hold while he asked the
underwriters since he didn't know.
Got to say that in your case I'd have written to them asking the
question (when the phone call got that reply) and pointing out that they
should have been able to answer it over the phone. If that didn't get a
definitive answer a complaint to the ABI would have been in order, IMHO
Parish
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 15:50:10 +0100
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
"Parish" wrote in message
news:42c94bd4$0$2066$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
> On 04/07/2005 15:25 PC Paul wrote:
>>
>> I changed company next time round anyway (and most times) so who knows
>> now...
>
> Wise move. The droid I spoke to put me on hold while he asked the
> underwriters since he didn't know.
>
> Got to say that in your case I'd have written to them asking the question
> (when the phone call got that reply) and pointing out that they should
> have been able to answer it over the phone. If that didn't get a
> definitive answer a complaint to the ABI would have been in order, IMHO
>
I thought about it but I didn't *need* to know, it was only during a very
similar thread to this one and I was curious lol ;-)
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 15:02:35 GMT
Author:
|
Re: Don't get pranged by the policy shunt
On 04/07/2005 15:46 Conor wrote:
> In article <42c9238e$0$41904$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>,
> Parish says...
>> On 04/07/2005 12:39 Conor wrote:
>>
>> > In article <42c915a0$0$2036$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>,
>> > Parish says...
>> >
>> >> I'm concerned. When I got my current car I sold my old one privately
>> >> and, as it was no longer insured, I parked it on the local pub car park.
>> >
>> > Oh dear. It still needed to be insured as it was parked in a place
>> > accessible to the public.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> 3rd party insurance is only required on the public highway, although I
>> agree, it would be a good idea to have it on private land too.
>
> No, 3rd party insurance is a requirement anywhere the public have
> access to such as supermarket car parks.
>
>
Hmm, the Highway Code, http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/28.htm (section 4.
The Road User And The Law) uses a similar phrase as you when defining
where the various Road/Driving Acts apply,
"any highway and any other road to which the public has access and
includes bridges over which a road passes"
but then goes on to state:
"It is important to note that references to 'road' therefore generally
include footpaths, bridle-ways and cycle tracks and many roadways and
driveways on private land (including many car parks)."
Note that it says *many* not *all* car parks but doesn't elaborate. This
implies that some car parks are not covered and since the pub car park,
and most others I've seen (and probably supermarket car parks), display
a sign "This is a private car park for use of patrons only" suggests
that these car parks may not be covered - although of course, patrons
are the public.
The HC then goes on
"Some serious driving offences, including drink-driving offences, also
apply to all public places, for example public car parks."
which again implies that some car parks are *not* public but, as above,
doesn't elaborate.
Based on the wording I would say that council car parks are public, and
pubs and supermarket ones are private but, as usual, IANAL.
I also wonder if, in the case of an uninsured vehicle parked on a pub
car park (displaying a sign that it is private), whether the Police and
the law would make a distinction between a car that is parked and one
that is being driven, i.e. moving? I'll be seeing my Police Officer
friend tomorrow night so I'll ask him (although at the time I mentioned
in conversation that my car was uninsured and he never said anything).
Also, "many roadways and driveways on private land" kind of implies that
the various Acts could apply to your own drive as the public have access
to them - postie, meter reader, etc.
Parish
Date:Mon, 04 Jul 2005 17:02:06 +0100
Author:
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